Trans Women are not Women

[Belz...]

His baby is dead indeed. You glad?

That is completely uncalled for.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That is completely uncalled for.

No what is completely uncalled for is blaming the victim for a death of their child, trying to make political capital out of the death of a baby to make a nonsense point about transgender people and dismissing counter arguments that express any empathy for trans people as pseudointellectual nonsense.

But you dont care less about that because you agree with the poster. Just as you rail against imagined labelling od people as transphobes yet turn a blind eye to actual false accusations of misogyny.

So spare me your tears. And drop the pretence that anyone having a dig at transpeople had any concern for the baby in this case.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

.....

This is kind of like watching a pod of killer whales pigging out of a herd of seals. You don't know who to root for. The Orcas because they're just doing what Orcas do and everybody gotta eat, or the cute fluffy seals. Now exactly who is who in this analogy is up to you and your preferred political affiliations.

Or maybe a better analogy would be watching auto racing. Sure it's sort of interesting watching the cars go around the track but the real excitement, the stuff everybody wants, are the crashes.

Heh. But (OT) I've never understood the idea of getting a thrill out of the 'spectacle' of carnage in motor racing, I hate seeing it happen. Drivers getting that close but saving it with consummate control it is where it's at as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me

 

[DragonLady]

Heh. But (OT) I've never understood the idea of getting a thrill out of the 'spectacle' of carnage in motor racing, I hate seeing it happen. Drivers getting that close but saving it with consummate control it is where it's at as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me

I agree so much! The skills of keeping it on the road is far more impressive and exciting then watching even a fender bender, and a really terrible accident is nothing I want to happen, let alone see.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So spare me your tears. And drop the pretence that anyone having a dig at transpeople had any concern for the baby in this case.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are not likely to convince someone that you have a better insight into this case than they do by informing them they don't care that a baby died.

Also, if you really believe posters don't care that the baby died, maybe take a moment to ponder whether that's a hint that you don't really have as a good grasp of whatever it is that they really think as maybe you imagined.

 

[DragonLady]

So spare me your tears. And drop the pretence that anyone having a dig at transpeople had any concern for the baby in this case.

Let me put on record that I'm extremely saddened a baby died.

 

[theprestige]

Let me put on record that I'm extremely saddened a baby died.

Let me put on record that I'm not. Sincere sadness is a serious emotional state. I simply don't have the capacity to be sad about more than a very few things and people that are near to my everyday experience. Extreme sadness especially is reserved for things of direct and extreme importance to me.

The sadness I feel for arbitrary deaths that are not even remotely connected to me can barely be measured. It's certainly not extreme sadness.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm sure we can all grove on the distinction between intense, personal sadness and the simple emotional acknowledgement that the event in question is a terrible thing.

We are not divided between being personally emotionally devastated by things and not caring about them.

 

[DragonLady]

I simply don't have the capacity to be sad about more than a very few things and people that are near to my everyday experience.

You're certainly not alone in feeling that way; but personally I allow myself to be touched a bit more by a great many things, even when they do not affect my life and are entirely beyond my control.

 

[theprestige]

I'm sure we can all grove on the distinction between intense, personal sadness and the simple emotional acknowledgement that the event in question is a terrible thing.

We are not divided between being personally emotionally devastated by things and not caring about them.

Oh, for sure. That distinction is literally my entire jam. Which is why I do not use "extremely" to describe the degree of my sad in this case. Just want to put that on record.

 

[Crawtator]

Let me state for the record that I'm not extremely sad either, because I have no connection. However, the insinuation that someone would be glad is beyond the pale.

 

[TomB]

Seems like a miscommunication. Could have been from patient to nurse, nurse to chart, chart to nurse/doctor etc. Regardless of blame, I'm not sure the story says much other than that trans people have an extra variable to consider regarding health care.

Both patient and medical staff need to be aware that while a person should be addressed as their gender, they still have medical concerns related to their biological sex. (Plus concerns regarding any treatments involved in their transition.)

Maybe it was on the chart but the doctor skimmed it and just saw male and proceeded from there. Maybe the nurse didn't note it correctly. I'm sure the hospital is investigating.

When I take a family member to the ER, I give the triage nurse all the information. Then when the attending nurse comes in, I pretty much repeat everything again. And again when the doctor comes in. (My wife has chronic pancreatitis and my daughter started getting kidney stones at the age of 14, so we were frequent flyers in the ER for a while.) I don't assume all pertinent information makes it from one carer to the next and if I think something is being overlooked, I consider it my responsibility to bring it up. I would rather over-communicate than under.

 

[Belz...]

No what is completely uncalled for is blaming the victim for a death of their child, trying to make political capital out of the death of a baby to make a nonsense point about transgender people and dismissing counter arguments that express any empathy for trans people as pseudointellectual nonsense.

And that justifies your comment? No, you were frustrated, that's why you said what you said. You should apologise to him, quite frankly. Just as a show of good faith on your part.

But you dont care less about that because you agree with the poster.

Do I? How would you even know? I haven't weighted in on your conversation except to point out that your comment was uncalled for.

Just as you rail against imagined labelling od people as transphobes yet turn a blind eye to actual false accusations of misogyny.

I think you have me confused with another poster. I'm the one with the demon avatar.

If you're refering to Rolfe's accusations of misogyny, I have commented on it in the past, and I certainly disagree with her on that. You just can't distinguish between any number of possible positions that are not aligned with yours. As far as you're concerned, any disagreement can be put in the same box, right?

So spare me your tears.

What are you even on about? I'm telling you that your behaviour is unacceptable. What's that got to do with tears? I suggest you calm down. You're acting hysterically.

And drop the pretence that anyone having a dig at transpeople had any concern for the baby in this case.

I doubt you have any care for the baby, either. You're far too invested in having a dig, to use your own words, at people who disagree with you. You're looking for a win, not some sort of justice.

 

[p0lka]

Ahh, my favorite ISF sport, arguing about whether or not someone said something. Well, we have a quote, and even a multiquote function. It shouldn't be too hard.

Well, at any rate, I think this was the post that started this sub-discussion.



That post occurred prior to any mention of "off topic".

Correct, then someone else immediately brought up being offtopic.

I can't really take this seriously. Stating "His baby is dead indeed. You glad?" is not only off topic, but is so outside the scope of what was being discussed that it implies something despicable. And I would bet my bottom dollar that most of the posters here would agree with my assessment. If not, I would gladly retract.

I disagree that it's offtopic, if meadmaker brings up dead babies then it's not offtopic to reply.

Now, POlka, if you didn't understand what I meant in my original post about a dead baby, or the subsequent question about whether or not I was glad it is dead, Roboramma got it right.

Here's your post,

I decided to give up some of the pseudointellectual crap.

That person in the article is a woman.

Her baby is dead.

Where am I not understanding your meanings?
There aren't any, you're just making statements.

Oh and I forgot to ask..

Her baby is dead.

His baby is dead, are you sad?

 

[The Atheist]

His baby is dead, are you sad?

That is where it becomes nonsensical.

It isn't "his" baby, it's "hers".

Men don't have the ability to conceive, carry, or birth a child, so the wannbe trans man was actually living a woman's life, and the mother of the baby is clearly female. They can argue semantics and gender-shaming all they like, but men do not get pregnant.

And as for the dead kid, colour me in the "not giving a damn" category.

I blame the mother 100%, and I don't see how any other conclusion is possible. In the abortion debate, I - and most of the other pro-choice people - believe it is the mother's choice. Her body, her choice; a simple concept

The same applies here.

If this deadbeat wannabe trans/swap & change as it suits/person, wants to get pregnant, fine and dandy - her body, her choice.

However, it then behooves her to make some bloody plans around the event, like having medical professionals involved and maybe a medical bracelet, especially if she's hiding the pregnancy under male clothing and a beard. Just think, a $10 medical bracelet would have saved the baby's life. But it's the hospital's fault?

Not buying it, sorry.

Given how useless the mother was, the baby is probably better off dead than living in some absurd opposite land where you can change gender when you change your pants.

 

[Meadmaker]

No what is completely uncalled for is blaming the victim for a death of their child, trying to make political capital out of the death of a baby to make a nonsense point about transgender people and dismissing counter arguments that express any empathy for trans people as pseudointellectual nonsense.

But you dont care less about that because you agree with the poster. Just as you rail against imagined labelling od people as transphobes yet turn a blind eye to actual false accusations of misogyny.

So spare me your tears. And drop the pretence that anyone having a dig at transpeople had any concern for the baby in this case.

Projection.

 

[cullennz]

Not sure how not being sad for the death of a baby automatically means glad they are dead.

Personally don't feel sad, but feel sympathy.

Oh, and it is obviously "her" baby

 

[Meadmaker]

On the question of whether I had concern for the baby in the article. I think it's normal to feel empathy on reading a story about a person who suffers some tragedy, even if you don't personally know the people involved. I sure as hell am not glad a baby died. Am I sad? Not exactly. I feel it's a tragedy. Is pathos the same as sadness? It's not exactly sadness. Not that I think Polka's question had a hint of sincerity about it. God only knows what his point was.


As an aside, before you go asking stupid questions about how someone feels concerning dead babies, give at least some thought to the possibility that the person might actually have been touched personally by the death of a baby. It's really best not to personalize that sort of argument. No, I haven't lost a child myself, but I know people who have.




I think we should consider the practical effects of public policy, rather than evaluating whether our team is winning. In this case, the practical effect is a dead baby. It's hard seeing how anything is more important than that.


Last week, there was a death where I felt real sadness, even though I didn't know the person who died. It was the Colorado school shooting case. The murder victim in the case was a FIRST Robotics kid, which meant that I was seeing personal tributes from people who did know him. It wasn't the same sort of all pervasive grief that one feels at the death of an actual loved one, but it was definitely sadness. I think almost everyone feels some sort of sadness as they read first person testimonials about the loss of a friend or loved one, and even more so if there is something about the victim that makes you feel closer to him, or more able to imagine yourself in the place of his loved ones.


There was a transgender angle in that death as well. For those of you who haven't followed the case, one of the shooters was Alec (nee Maya) McKinney, a 16 year old transboy. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, so we shouldn't automatically jump to conclusions, but unless something very unexpected happens, Mr. McKinney is going to be a guest of the state of Colorado for a very long time. He is being tried as an adult. I guess it's a trans-ager sort of thing.


What that means is that in the near future, a 17 year old girl is going to be put in the company of a large number of adult, male, murderers, robbers, and, last but certainly not least, rapists. What could go wrong?

 

[Meadmaker]

Back to the practical realities of the baby case. The New England Journal of Medicine apparently took the position that the issue was lack of education, and the solution was to make hospital staff more aware about the possibility of men having babies.

Roboramma already described the problem with that approach. Yes, sure, it's all well and good, but mistakes can still happen and confusion can still be introduced. Another solution would be to just write "female" on the chart. I can't see any possible downside, at least in terms of medical outcomes, that could be a result of doing that. Since two lives are at stake, I think that's the best approach.

 

[theprestige]

Pregnant woman LARPs as a dude. Medical community plays along. Miscarriage results. Who's to blame?