Trans Women are not Women

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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
If hospitals can't cope with trans people and it causes trans people real harm then, and work with me on this one because I know you are capable of reasoned thought.... THAT'S NOT THE TRANSPEOPLE WHO ARE TO BLAME, THAT'S THE HOSPITAL'S FAULT!!!
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If the reason for failure is because of policies created by trans people, then no, trans people do share some blame. The fiction that a female can become a male is a dangerous one in a medical setting, but that is exactly what trans activists have pushed people into accepting.
 
A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?

Last time this came up was about a year ago in the 'man gives birth' thread. The person in the article birthed a child, said they were a man. What information is carried by the term 'man' in that case, and (a question for the person in the article not the posters here) what precisely would have to be/feel different for them to say they were a woman?

Setting aside for the moment all considerations of bathrooms or athletic teams or the like : in those extreme cases where someone is pretty much fully biologically one sex, what are the precise differences which make them say they're the opposite gender? "Yes, I'm biologically a male, but I identify as a woman. Now, if <x> were different, then I'd be a man.".

None of this is meant as a judgement, a dig a motivations, or anything to do with morality. In these edge cases I'm honestly failing to see what information is being conveyed by 'man' or 'woman'.
 
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Joe Random said:
A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?
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I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.
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The most detailed answer I was ever given actually came from a woman (cis-) who I think was pretty much just guessing and trying to make sense of it herself. What it boiled down to were essentially preferences and interests. When I was growing up we'd have used the word 'tomboy' (with no insult intended) not 'transman'. You're not a boy, you're a girl who hates frilly dresses, wants to play on the football team, and traded in that Ez-Bake oven she got for her birthday for a Creepy Crawler Thingmaker. And that's wonderful and cool, we support you. Just use the right word to describe it.

So I can't imagine that trans* is actually like the seeming guesses my friend above was making, because it's not like we needed new terms to describe some new (or even newly accepted) phenomena.

I mean, I'm heterosexual. I say this because I'm sexually attracted to women and the idea of being with another man in a sexual setting is very off-putting to me. Now, if I were to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be turned on by men as well, I'd say I was bi, or if I was grossed out at the idea of being in bed with a woman but men really did it for me I'd call myself homosexual. The terms used convey information beyond something circular. I honestly struggle to see what non-circular information "I identify as ..." conveys.
 
Meadmaker said:
I decided to give up some of the pseudointellectual crap.
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Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?

That person in the article is a woman.
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Funny that the medical profession struggled with any of this. Its a pity they didn't have your expertise to help them.

Her baby is dead.
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His baby is dead indeed. You glad?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.
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Rather than screaming into the void maybe take a moment to reflect that the good news is that you probably don't have gender dysphoria then?

There are a whole host of things that I don't understand fully and don't really 'get' but I am willing to accept that they are real things, and that other people indeed may have knowledge, experiences and emotions that I do not share.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Rather than screaming into the void maybe take a moment to reflect that the good news is that you probably don't have gender dysphoria then?

There are a whole host of things that I don't understand fully and don't really 'get' but I am willing to accept that they are real things, and that other people indeed may have knowledge, experiences and emotions that I do not share.
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If by "get" you mean treat with the same basic level of human respect and dignity as everyone else, yes.

If by "get" you mean "literally perceive reality the way I do or pretend to do so, up to and including acknowledging a distinction without difference while not being allowed to discuss the difference" then no.
 
...if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?
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d4m10n said:
For one thing, it tells people where to shop for gender-appropriate attire.

https://twitter.com/BlueBallSkeptic/status/632587889960841217

I can probably think of other gender-specific situations that don't directly involve genitals and such.
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"Gender-appropriate"??? Perhaps you mean gender-specific? Having specific utility to one sex or other? Trousers have flys to accomodate the penis, allow men to to urinate, a skirt does the same for women. Y-fronts vs knickers. Bras?

You're just confirming that to you "gender stereotypes" and even simple definitions exist or don't, whenever it suits you to try and win a point (in your mind).
 
Joe Random said:
A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?
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I see the problem, you're overthinking the whole issue.

Best not to do that lest you find yourself asking questions like....If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?
 
IsThisTheLife said:
"Gender-appropriate"??? Perhaps you mean gender-specific? Having specific utility to one sex or other? Trousers have flys to accomodate the penis, allow men to to urinate, a skirt does the same for women. Y-fronts vs knickers. Bras?
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Never been to Scotland, eh?

...but seriously why does it matter to you if a bloke wants to wear a skirt? Or a bra?
 
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Stout said:
I see the problem, you're overthinking the whole issue.

Best not to do that lest you find yourself asking questions like....If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?
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That's exactly the questions I've been asking and I haven't gotten answer beyond "You're being a transphobe!" or progressivism's standard excuse at pointing at some "Official Victim Ranking Chart" only they can see and grunting.
 
Well clothing might be an issue still, but I've found a handy flow chart to determine the gender-appropriateness of toys :


 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?
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It is impossible to have a reasoned debate about pregnant men. Any 12 year old can explain why, but since you went to college you might not understand the explanation. If that is the case, then the Joes have done a good job of explaining.
 
Stout said:
If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?
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I don’t know why you say this like it’s an apocryphal question. There’s nothing wrong with it. You only get any pushback from people who answered it already while you weren’t looking and are tired of trying to answer it again.

I don’t think it’s a question with a singular answer either. Gender and presentation seem to mean different things to different people. Plenty of people are indeed happy being mannish chicks, and some trans men still enjoy a lot of typically feminine things. I can’t tell you what the point is, but I also can’t tell you the point of a thousand other things humans do. It doesn’t bother me. Human beings are not actually particularly good at living their lives based on good logical consistent sense. The more I think about it the more I liken gender identity to religion; it’s personal, it doesn’t actually make any sense but people feel very deeply about it, and hopefully one day we’ll all outgrow it.
 
Lithrael said:
I don’t know why you say this like it’s an apocryphal question. There’s nothing wrong with it. You only get any pushback from people who answered it already while you weren’t looking and are tired of trying to answer it again.

I don’t think it’s a question with a singular answer either. Gender and presentation seem to mean different things to different people. Plenty of people are indeed happy being mannish chicks, and some trans men still enjoy a lot of typically feminine things. I can’t tell you what the point is, but I also can’t tell you the point of a thousand other things humans do. It doesn’t bother me. Human beings are not actually particularly good at living their lives based on good logical consistent sense. The more I think about it the more I liken gender identity to religion; it’s personal, it doesn’t actually make any sense but people feel very deeply about it, and hopefully one day we’ll all outgrow it.
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I totally agree with you on the being like religion thing. Personally I don't give a rip who uses what bathroom but there are certainly those who do and for reasons that could be described as illogical.

The question could be reworded to ask...Why is is so important that I, John Q Public accept you for something that you're not ? Why do I need to go whole hog and believe that you're the exact same as someone who was born into their apparent gender ?

I also have to accept that a a cis dude any opinion I have on trans women in sport of accessing bathrooms/changerppms is going to get me labelled as either a transphobe or a misogynist, maybe even a transmisogynist to which I can only say....So what ?
 
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