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America transitions into Gilead

If the fundamental question is whether or not a fetus has a right to life, how the heck is privacy concerns of the woman all that relevant?

That's NOT the fundamental question down here in the real world. It's an excuse used by people who obviously don't believe it because they can't account for the most fundamental, as in real world fundamental, problems with that approach.

An aborted fetus is not more special then the countless billions upon countless billion of fertilized egg shells naturally expelled every year.
 
Who is forcing women to get illegal abortions? Are gangs running around, kidnapping pregnant women, and performing abortions on them against their will? :confused:

One of the reasons I am no longer a conservative is the way that those who are not that religious themselves have become supporters and apoligists for the religiout fundies.
It's also a major reason that a lot of free market small government advocates call themselves "Libertarians" rather then conservatives.
 
Because if you think that abortion is murder, you don't think that the appropriate response is to make it state-sanctioned and safe murder, even if it decreases the number of abortions.

Defunding Planned Parenthood is a matter of not wanting taxpayers to fund abortions. If I thought it was murder, then I too would think it's beyond the pale that I'm forced to fund it.

Note: I am strongly against the defunding of Planned Parenthood. I'm just saying that I can understand why pro-lifers favor it. Even if the taxpayer money doesn't go directly to abortion services, the fact that they receive it frees up other money for those services.
IOW they don't care about saving fetuses, they care about punishing women and doctors.

Sure, because them folk are just plain evil.
Some of them are. Some simply use cognitive dissonance to ignore the effects of their position like your rationalizing suggests.

They choose to pay attention to one aspect while ignoring the reality that their actions are not decreasing abortions.
 
That's NOT the fundamental question down here in the real world. It's an excuse used by people who obviously don't believe it because they can't account for the most fundamental, as in real world fundamental, problems with that approach.

An aborted fetus is not more special then the countless billions upon countless billion of fertilized egg shells naturally expelled every year.

I don't suppose I can respond to you without doing philosophy, which you loathe, so perhaps we should let this discussion drop.

If, of course, you want to hear my response, I'll provide it, so long as you don't complain that I'm discussing an ethical issue using ethics.
 
Social burdens are not the same as physical burdens.



It's just about sharing the body, for me. All the rest is a different situation.
Fair enough, I guess.

But I tend to see physical burdens as social burdens. If you're drowning and I try to save you, I don't get to change my mind halfway through because the physical burden is too inconvenient. A firefighter doesn't get to opt out of carrying people from a burning building because "lol people are heavy".

Anyway, if your criteria is "sharing the body", does that mean you would allow abortions of convenience up until the moment of birth?

I'm presuming a society advanced enough to have teleporters would also have pretty good social services.
Technological advance and social safety net don't seem to be well correlated in fact or fiction. The Soviet Union was plenty advanced, with nuclear power plants, probes to other planets, supersonic aircraft, space stations, computers, etc. But their social services were pretty bad even by the standards of the day.

The Klingons have warp drives, teleporters, and cloaking devices. But are their social services up to your humanitarian standards?

Opt-in fertility (i.e., everyone's sterilized at birth and the procedure is temporarily reversed when people want to breed) would be as close to infallible as to make no difference.

Well. If you don't make it mandatory, you'll have conscientious objectors who opt-out. Hell, even if you do make it mandatory, you'll still have people opting out. Look how well that works with vaccination and home schooling.

Then there's all the idiots who think they want to breed, and then change their mind halfway through. Or who kept meaning to reverse the reversal but never get around to it, and go on having sex anyway. Even in a world of condoms, easy-access birth control, and the old standby of abstinence, we still seem to need abortions of convenience on the regular. I don't think foolproof technology is going to be the right answer for solving human problems.
 
By not allowing women access to legal abortion, (g) you are pretty much forcing that on them as the only option.

Carrying to term is an option. It may not be an option you like, but it still is an option.

Again unless "Hey 12 year old just carry your daddy-rapists child to term" is a viable (no pun intended) option you can't ban abortions, only the legal and safe ones.

See my previous response to this point. You aren't as clever as you think you are.
 
See my previous response to this point. You aren't as clever as you think you are.

Dismissing "The opinion that women shouldn't be forced to carry their rapist children to term" as nothing but "being clever" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) is unbelievably callous.
 
Carrying to term is an option. It may not be an option you like, but it still is an option.



See my previous response to this point. You aren't as clever as you think you are.

No. An option means "a thing that is or may be chosen". When the option of abortion is denied, there is no other option than to carry to term. Well, there is one and one that has been chosen bymany women throughout history: suicide.
 
The traditional argument that the fetus has a right to life because it's a potential person and potentiality is enough to grant such a right is an example of a non-religious argument.

A better argument is Marquis's argument that what makes (most) killing wrong is that it deprives one of a "future like ours", that is, all the future experiences which one would have enjoyed but for the premature death. Abortion also deprives one (the fetus) of a future like ours, so abortion is wrong for the same reason that killing a normal adult human is wrong. The article is titled "An Argument that Abortion is Wrong".

I have a scan of it if you're interested in a non-religious argument regarding abortion, but if not, no worries. I'm not assigning homework.

Marquis's argument pointedly avoids the question of who has rights, instead asking what makes killing a normal human wrong and then determining that what makes killing wrong is also a feature of abortion. It is a decent argument, whether you agree with the conclusion or not. I find it difficult to dismiss.

An argument based on "potential" is a weak argument. Depriving a potential person of "a future like ours" sounds like another version of the potential argument. And killing an adult or a child is wrong for reasons besides those. That's not the only reason why killing is wrong.

Forcing a woman (say a rape victim) or girl to become a single mother also deprives her of "a future like ours". You've taken away 20 years of her life. Anyone who feels so strongly about this that they would deny abortion to a rape victim or a single woman in a difficult situation should prove it by "putting their money where their mouth is" so to speak and adopting a child or two. If you're not willing to take on that burden yourself, then you have no right to impose that burden on someone else.
 
Illegal abortion is also an option.

NO...that's being left with NO choice but to go to some butcher in a back alley room or sticking a coat hanger up themselves. Choices which often end up with the woman dead or unable to have children in the future. Thanks to laws like Georgia's and Alabama's and people who think their own personal beliefs should control what a woman does with her own body.
 
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Fair enough, I guess.

But I tend to see physical burdens as social burdens. If you're drowning and I try to save you, I don't get to change my mind halfway through because the physical burden is too inconvenient. A firefighter doesn't get to opt out of carrying people from a burning building because "lol people are heavy".
That is a ludicrous analogy.

Anyway, if your criteria is "sharing the body", does that mean you would allow abortions of convenience up until the moment of birth?
And this is a propaganda falsehood. Of course you have to get past the anti-abortion propaganda pages and all their fear-mongering to find the facts.

Women don't just change their minds mid-pregnancy and casually decide to abort viable fetuses. Late abortions are almost always because either the mother's life is in danger or the fetus is so seriously malformed as to make continuing the pregnancy futile, for example, a fetus that has anencephaly. Rarely a girl who has been in serious denial about her pregnancy might show up for a third trimester abortion.

Mother Jones 2013: Who Still Does Third-Trimester Abortions? - Just these four doctors—and here’s why they’re desperately needed.With only four doctors still performing third-trimester abortions, there certainly couldn't be thousands of abortions of viable fetuses as one of the anti-abortion websites claimed.
One can understand the decision of the expectant mother after she learns that even if her baby were to survive delivery, his life would be short and marred by seizures and suffering. One can sympathize with the god-fearing couple whose unborn child is revealed to have terrible deformities and little hope for any real quality of life. And it’s not difficult to comprehend the choice of the young woman who became pregnant after being raped. But then there are the women who just waited—in denial, out of fear, or for some other private reason. No matter the case, the decision to undergo a late-term abortion is a complex moral dilemma for patients and doctors alike.

...
In medical school, Warren Hern started out as an obstetrician because he loved delivering babies, calling it a joyful and miraculous experience. Then he did a stint in the Peace Corps in an impoverished part of Brazil, working with post-natal women and also women recovering from illegal abortions—nearly half of whom died, he told the filmmakers.

What I believe is women are able to struggle with complex ethical issues and arrive at the right decision for themselves and their families. They are the world’s expert on their own lives. So if somebody comes in and says, “I want an abortion,” whether or not she is articulate about it, let alone she has a great story to tell, isn’t the point. The point is that she has made this decision…For me, if I’m going to turn down a patient it should be because I think it’s not safe to take care of her. I think that is really the only reason that it’s fair to turn a patient down.


From a clinic that does the procedure:
Patients coming in for very late abortion - over 26 menstrual weeks' gestation - are almost always seeking services for termination of a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. This usually means the discovery of a catastrophic fetal anomaly or genetic disorder that guarantees death, suffering, or serious disability for the baby that would be delivered if the pregnancy were to continue to term. Occasionally a woman presents at this stage for pregnancy termination because of her own severe medical illness or a psychiatric indication. (See "A Special Note About Fetal Anomaly")


NPR: 2019: Abortion In The Third Trimester: A Rare Decision Now In The Political Spotlight
However polarizing third-trimester abortions might be as a political issue, as a medical procedure, they are relatively rare. According to the Guttmacher Institute, which supports abortion rights, a little more than 1 percent occur sometime after 21 weeks, which is still well within the second trimester.
Once you subtract women whose life is at risk and fetuses who will not be viable outside the womb, how many of these abortions are the actual infanticide scenario the fear-mongerers claim? It's an incredibly small number.
But then you have the fanatics:
Some abortion-rights opponents argue that women facing life-ending fetal diagnoses should still go through with the pregnancy.
They don't give a **** about that woman or fetus, they have a knee-jerk rationalization that they have a right to tell someone else what to do in such a personal situation.

For example, WTF does this person know about how someone else should feel?
"The woman would have the opportunity to hold the baby, to say her goodbyes to the baby. And I think that's a much more humane situation for that woman and for that baby," Skop said.
I read that **** and it pisses me off. :mad:


Then there's all the idiots who think they want to breed, and then change their mind halfway through. Or who kept meaning to reverse the reversal but never get around to it, and go on having sex anyway. Even in a world of condoms, easy-access birth control, and the old standby of abstinence, we still seem to need abortions of convenience on the regular. I don't think foolproof technology is going to be the right answer for solving human problems.
That's one strange world you live in there.
 
No. An option means "a thing that is or may be chosen". When the option of abortion is denied, there is no other option than to carry to term.

You cannot simultaneously claim that women are forced to have illegal abortions and that they are also forced to carry to term. These are mutually exclusive possibilities.
 
Dismissing "The opinion that women shouldn't be forced to carry their rapist children to term" as nothing but "being clever" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) is unbelievably callous.

You didn't read my earlier post, did you? You certainly show no signs of having done so.
 
You cannot simultaneously claim that women are forced to have illegal abortions and that they are also forced to carry to term. These are mutually exclusive possibilities.

No, they're not. If a woman does not want to endanger her life or future fertility by getting an illegal abortion (having been denied a safe and legal abortion), then she is forced to carry to term.
 
No, they're not. If a woman does not want to endanger her life or future fertility by getting an illegal abortion (having been denied a safe and legal abortion), then she is forced to carry to term.

In which case she isn't forced to get an illegal abortion. So yeah, mutually exclusive. And that's ignoring the fact that you had to insert an "if" and a "want".
 
I count at least three options, and no force.

Some "choices"!
1. carrying to term against her wishes
2. committing suicide
3. endangering her life with a botched, illegal abortion
4. endangering her future ability to have children from a botched abortion

Yep, women will really have some great options there!

I wonder how you'd feel if you ever had to face an unwanted pregnancy at 12, 13, or 14 years old after being raped by daddy and then kicked out of the house when mommy doesn't believe you. Oh, wait...you'll never face that, will you? It's easy to tell others what to do and get on your moral high ground when it's all just something you'll never face.
 

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