Trans Women are not Women

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People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this. Trans activists say it's demeaning and degrading to have to talk to psychologists or psychiatrists and to show you've gone through a pantomime of LARPing "woman" for two years, and the state should just take their word for it.

That is what the state is proposing to do. (Although opponents have managed to make enough noise about this that the legislation appears to have stalled for the present.)
 
Rolfe said:
People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this. Trans activists say it's demeaning and degrading to have to talk to psychologists or psychiatrists and to show you've gone through a pantomime of LARPing "woman" for two years, and the state should just take their word for it.

That is what the state is proposing to do. (Although opponents have managed to make enough noise about this that the legislation appears to have stalled for the present.)
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Again this isn't strictly true.

Of course trans people would have an encounter with a medical professional before transitioning medically and anyone who thought they were trans would and should be encouraged to talk to a doctor about it and seek counselling.

What is proposed to be removed is the process of REQUIRING this for a GRC.

And let's face it, no process is going to satisfy you anyway when you talk about transpeople with such dripping disdain.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Again this isn't strictly true.

Of course trans people would have an encounter with a medical professional before transitioning medically and anyone who thought they were trans would and should be encouraged to talk to a doctor about it and seek counselling.

What is proposed to be removed is the process of REQUIRING this for a GRC.
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This is strictly true:

"People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this."


And let's face it, no process is going to satisfy you anyway when you talk about transpeople with such dripping disdain.
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Narcissistic accusations are often confessions.
 
JihadJane said:
This is strictly true:

"People keep talking about the trans person having some sort of an encounter with a medical professional before diagnosis. The proposed reforms to the GRA are aimed at doing away with this."
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No, it isn't. But I am not surprised that you can't see it.



Narcissistic accusations are often confessions.
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Are you accusing Rolfe of pretending to be a woman? :confused:
 
d4m10n said:
It's a point of sorts, badly made.

I suppose we could say that minimizing cringeworthiness is a moral goal worth maximizing, but seriously?
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Sorry, where are we disagreeing here? The whole topic is about restrooms, for instance, is because otherwise it makes trans people unhappy. It's not necessarily a bad point, but it is definitely an appeal to emotion.
 
Belz... said:
The whole topic is about restrooms, for instance, is because otherwise it makes trans people unhappy.
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Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.
 
d4m10n said:
Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.
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This. The debate is often framed as if the trans people's feelings are the only ones that matter. Women's feelings are of so little account that the debate swiftly moves on to matters of safety. Of course safety is important, but it's telling that, if the debate remained on the topic of personal feelings, the feelings of the trans-identifying men (because that's who we're talking about here) are commonly regarded to trump everything.

The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated, and who cares about the women whose private spaces are being opened to any man who cares to enter? (While at the same time we're continuing to campaign for proper segragated facilities for girls in third world countries so they can attend school. Won't somebody think of the poor excluded trans-girls in Somalia and Ethiopia?)
 
Rolfe said:
<snip>

The poor oppressed marginalised (six-foot, muscular, bepenised) flowers must have their lady feelz validated, and who cares about the women whose private spaces are being opened to any man who cares to enter? (While at the same time we're continuing to campaign for proper segragated facilities for girls in third world countries so they can attend school. Won't somebody think of the poor excluded trans-girls in Somalia and Ethiopia?)
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Interesting choice of countries.

LGBT rights in both countries leave a lot to be desired. Any sort of gay sex is a crime, for starters. Leading to imprisonment if convicted.

Not particularly tolerant societies.

Somehow I doubt that "trans-girls" lead a particularly enviable existence in either one.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Your problem seems to be that doctors aren't doing their jobs properly? Do you have evidence that this is the case or just a hunch?
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I have anecdotal evidence from people who have detransitioned and said that they should never have transitioned to begin with, that they had these other problems that should have been addressed but never were. I also have anecdotal evidence from parents of autistic kids who say that the professionals advocating for their kids' transitions have ignored their autism in consideration of their diagnosis, as well as from autism experts who have discussed the dynamics of the attraction towards transgenderism. It would take some work to dig up links again, if that's what you're asking for.

I don't have numbers on the prevalence of this, I suspect it would be hard to get a study for this purpose even funded.
 
Ziggurat said:
I have anecdotal evidence from people who have detransitioned and said that they should never have transitioned to begin with, that they had these other problems that should have been addressed but never were. I also have anecdotal evidence from parents of autistic kids who say that the professionals advocating for their kids' transitions have ignored their autism in consideration of their diagnosis, as well as from autism experts who have discussed the dynamics of the attraction towards transgenderism. It would take some work to dig up links again, if that's what you're asking for.

I don't have numbers on the prevalence of this, I suspect it would be hard to get a study for this purpose even funded.
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I would imagine that the data doesn't exist beyond anecdote but I have no doubt that examples of bad practice and misdiagnosis can be found. I would imagine the same could be said for any mental health issue though. I don't think that's evidence of a massive problem here but rather that its not an exact science and doctors are human.

With regards the autism there are also anecdotes in the opposite direction with trans people saying they were told that they weren't really trans just autistic. So it does cut both ways.

https://disabilityarts.online/blog/emma-robdale/blog-youre-not-trans-youre-autistic/

ETA: One other thing I discovered today is that in the UK the diagnosis has to be done by one of the approved medics, so you can't just find a sympathetic doctor who will do what you want. This causes other issues of course because there are a limited number of these people to go round so there are substantial hurdles to be overcome, and costs associated with, getting the diagnosis.
 
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d4m10n said:
Bit silly to pretend trans people are the only ones with emotional stakes here, when nearly everyone's comfort levels are on the line. Most of the arguments from emotion I've seen on this thread are from gender critical feminists, angry and/or unhappy about having their previously sex-segregated spaces used by people with penises. This isn't really surprising or unusual, most people react badly to having something they value taken away.
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I could've sworn the English language has a word for this.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
With regards the autism there are also anecdotes in the opposite direction with trans people saying they were told that they weren't really trans just autistic. So it does cut both ways.

https://disabilityarts.online/blog/emma-robdale/blog-youre-not-trans-youre-autistic/
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It's funny, that link treats it like it's a problem, but that's actually encouraging to me. But the situation in the UK is a bit different than the US.

ETA: One other thing I discovered today is that in the UK the diagnosis has to be done by one of the approved medics
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I don't think that's the case here in the US.
 
Crawtator said:
And in the news headlines, we have another reason for why you should have to declare what biological sex you are on some sort of documentation...

https://apnews.com/b5e7bb73c6134d58a0df9e1cee2fb8ad
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Haha oh wow:

When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn’t consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth.​

But then:

“He was rightly classified as a man” in the medical records and appears masculine, Stroumsa said. “But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs.”​

I'm pretty sure the result of "rightly classified" isn't actually "and therefore we did everything wrong".

ETA: This story suggests that neither patients nor doctors are even remotely competent to determine gender.

About nine months prior, this "rightly classified" "man" was operating as a fully-functional woman, biologically and socially. And yet somehow, in less than a year, she's transitioned so thoroughly that it doesn't even occur to her to mention that at some point in the not so distant past a dude was injecting sperm into her vagina with his penis, and that maybe this might have some medical relevance.
 
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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
They seemed to be aware he was transgender and claiming to be pregnant, no?

It appears they just didn't bother to treat him properly.
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You don't see that the entire problem was that, although he did declare he was transgendered, they identified him on the records as male. And that this characterization led to, and I quote:

“But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs.”
 
Baylor said:
I could've sworn the English language has a word for this.
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I think there is probably a bit more to it than that.

If you lose your junk in a horrible belt-sander accident, you may well become eligible for a Darwin Award but you don't automatically become a woman.
 
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