Trans Women are not Women

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d4m10n said:
Good intro to the topic, but treating gender as a metaphysical problem doesn't really help solve anything. The host / moderator doesn't take very seriously the notion that biological sex (what some of the interviewees call assignment) may well be an important factor in discrimination.

ETA: Rolfe won't at all enjoy the conclusion.
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Yeah, if there's one thing that annoys me about the trans rights movement, it's not transgender people themselves, but all the confusing Newspeak that they've introduced to the language. There was one woman in particular in part two who kept saying "female-assigned persons" and "male-coded genitalia".

He sort of weighs in with his own views at the very end of part 2, but his argument seems to be that young people like the students at his college are all on the side of trans-inclusivity whereas all the trans-exclusionists are over 40. It's a kind of argument by authority, where youth grants authority. (He doesn't explicitly say these people are right because they're young, it's just sort of hanging there in the air, unspoken; but I felt like it was implied.) Also he doesn't consider the possibility that there might be young people who hold such views, but are afraid to say them out loud in the current college environment where expression of such views isn't tolerated.
 
I heard about this on the podcast I linked to earlier:

Get The L Out
Who We Are

Get the L Out is a group of lesbian and feminist individuals and organisations, opposing the increasingly anti-lesbian and misogynistic LGBT movement and the erasure of lesbians

Why We Protest

We believe that lesbian rights are under attack by the trans movement and we encourage lesbians everywhere to leave the LGBT and form their own independent movement, as well as to be vocal and take action against the proposed changes to the GRA.
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(I believe GRA stands for Gender Recognition Act 2004WP.)

It gets even weirder after that and I'd like to quote more of it, but I'll refrain out of respect for forum rules.

If if were to summarize it, it's that they think young lesbians are being encouraged to think of themselves as men and lesbians are being coerced into having heterosexual sex and so on.
 
Ziggurat said:
Let's say someone self-identifies as a different gender than their biological sex, and goes to a professional (doctor, psychologist, whatever). Are there any professionals who are going to say, no, your self-identification is wrong? On what grounds would they make such a diagnosis?

Because it seems to me like that wouldn't happen, that there aren't really accepted grounds for a medical professional to reject a self-ID. It seems to me like getting a medical diagnosis is a mere formality, and even if one professional did refuse to confirm a self-diagnosis, you could find another who wouldn't.
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The (proposed - depending on where you live) new legislation doesn't even require seeing a doctor. You just sign a form, and you're believed.

In Canada I believe you have to get a doctor to sign something but as that journalist woman who became a man despite doing nothing at all but tuck her hair into a baseball cap said, "well she'll have to sign it won't she or else she's a massive bigot." And so it was.
 
8enotto said:
I can't ever recall a female playing male in any restrooms in my life.
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I did mention that when I was quite a bit younger and frequented certain noisy bars or clubs it would be relatively common for women to use the men's loos, when the length of wait for the women's became long enough to offset any aversion to doing this (people respond to incentives, it is annoying how long some women take in the loo and how unequal the capability-adjusted provision of service often is but c'est la vie). Always in twos or threes not singly. I've done it myself.

As far as I know, none of us were self-identifying as male, and I don't think anyone wanted to prey on men or cop a gawk at their bits and if it wasn't for the alcohol I am sure it would be less common and may have raised objections. In "classier" establishments effort was made to avoid this practice by hiring bathroom attendants to pass you a towel, squirt some soap, spray some cologne etc.

I don't know if it happens these days.
 
Bathroom attendant? Sounds like a first world problem to me. To me a "fancy" restaurant is one where they come to your table to take your order.
 
I have seen women commandeer an empty men's room at public events to avoid the lines. Also a particularly crazy bar it seemed to be sport to use the other's restroom.

What I have not seen is any female dressed and identifies as male in any restroom.
 
Ziggurat said:
Let's say someone self-identifies as a different gender than their biological sex, and goes to a professional (doctor, psychologist, whatever). Are there any professionals who are going to say, no, your self-identification is wrong? On what grounds would they make such a diagnosis?
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I am not a doctor so I can't tell you about what grounds there are for making or not making a diagnosis specifically but I can tell you that ANY professional worth their salt would not make a diagnosis that they did not believe was true. Of course there are good doctors and bad doctors and some who would say A while others would say B.

One set of diagnostic criteria are listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Diagnosis

If a doctor felt a patient did not meet these it would be their professional responsibility to say so.

Also to get a GRC is a process that involves persuading a panel and they are denied sometimes (I don't have the numbers to say how often)

Because it seems to me like that wouldn't happen, that there aren't really accepted grounds for a medical professional to reject a self-ID. It seems to me like getting a medical diagnosis is a mere formality, and even if one professional did refuse to confirm a self-diagnosis, you could find another who wouldn't.
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Which if true would make the switch to pure self-ID not worth people getting their pants in a twist about then, right?

It is certainly not the case that self-ID is extending a new set of rights that previously didn't exist with regards things like bathroom access.
 
d4m10n said:
How would you know unless you clocked them as female?

https://twitter.com/eastonnquesnel/status/1127787436128460800
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Now this raises an interesting perspective for me.

Once you take this question beyond the abstract and metaphysical and into the real world, anyone who can "pass" can pass, regardless of objections. Do the objectors want guards at the door of every restroom to check the papers of each person who enters in case they are particularly good at impersonating the opposite sex? If not, will you personally challenge anyone who you think might not belong there? Who is to enforce the restroom laws?
 
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Puppycow said:
... Do the objectors want guards at the door of every restroom to check the papers of each person who enters in case they are particularly good at impersonating the opposite sex?
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Not the objectors in this thread, is the impression I've got.

The biggest objection Rolfe seems to have raised is that there is a prevailing attitude that no line can be drawn between people who are particularly good at impersonating the opposite sex, people who try to do so and people who pointedly make no attempt at all to try and simply declare they are the opposite sex.

The number of men may well be tiny who fantasize about having a female body and who also get a thrill from women's intimidation by their appearing in women-only spaces, yet if there cannot be any line drawn, then any objection to their behaviour is taken as an attack on all trans people.
 
Puppycow said:
Once you take this question beyond the abstract and metaphysical and into the real world, anyone who can "pass" can pass, regardless of objections. Do the objectors want guards at the door of every restroom to check the papers of each person who enters in case they are particularly good at impersonating the opposite sex? If not, will you personally challenge anyone who you think might not belong there? Who is to enforce the restroom laws?
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This is basically what I was getting at back in 1780. We aren't generally going to check genitals or GRC papers, so people who pass as men or women are simply treated as such. What Rolfe & co. on about are the people who make essentially no effort to pass but demand access to sex-segregated spaces nonetheless, based on an unseen, unmeasurable, and perhaps ineffable subjective sense of gender identity.


My preferred solution to this problem would be to reconsider whether we should want to preserve sex- or gender- segregation in a world increasingly peopled by those who find themselves either transitioning between sexes or else purposefully queering the gender binary. Even so-called genderfree women must be mistaken for men on occasion, whenever they refuse to take on the external trappings of womanhood (long hair, dresses, lipstick, etc.).


tl;dr

[imgw=666]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6iOtAxXkAEq1PY.jpg[/imgw]
 
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Some non binary folks are ambiguous naturally and others despite great cost and effort are way too obvious.
If it was a birth defect or a development issue I see no need to complicate their lives more. It won't be easy for them.
Why someone would deliberately mess up their life with changes that will bring prejudice and shut doors on life's opportunities is beyond me.

You don't see " bloke in a dress " secretary or waitresses. Few enough opportunities exist to get ahead so why willingly reduce your chances?
 
d4m10n said:
My preferred solution to this problem would be to reconsider whether we should want to preserve sex- or gender- segregation in a world increasingly peopled by those who find themselves either transitioning between sexes or else purposefully queering the gender binary.
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Find themselves?
 
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But to "find oneself" transitioning between sexes sounds odd. As if it's something that just happens to a person instead of a conscious intentional decision.
 
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