Trans Women are not Women

[Rolfe]

It's back to the "kind fiction" and the tolerance. If this self-ID nonsense is knocked back and we can get to a point where the legal situation is that nobody with a functional penis is permitted to use the women's facilities, then hopefully we can go back to turning a kindly blind eye to the occasional doubtful case. And hopefully men can do the same for passing "transmen".

But as Dragon Lady says, masculinised women are still women and always will be, and any way there is of being a woman should be welcomed. Just as any way there is of being a man should be welcomed in the men's spaces.

 

[Minoosh]

I cannot be sure, either, without at least one high quality statistical comparison. The baseline rate of bathroom assaults isn't all that high, so it's going to be tricky to prove out one way or another.

I know, I'm throwing out hypothetical situations. Another thought I had is that someone could get drunk or high, pass out and eventually require security to pound on the door or use a pass key, without having any idea what's behind the door. The cashier at a gas station I frequent said someone had slashed their wrists in the bathroom so they stopped letting people use it.

As far as who can use which toilet I don't care that much. An anatomical male could use it to perv out but then so could a lesbian. I don't expect bathroom design/regulations to make me feel safe so the value of "protected spaces" isn't something I've thought much about, but I don't think the women on the thread who pose those concerns are being transphobic.

 

[Rolfe]

You know many reports of lesbians "perving out"? Is it something they're known for doing?

 

[Minoosh]

You know many reports of lesbians "perving out"? Is it something they're known for doing?

My point is, what people are thinking in the privacy of their own minds doesn't concern me. Aggressive behavior would, though.

There's nothing about being a lesbian that rules out being a predator but if someone just likes to look at women's bodies, I don't care.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you actually female? I've lost track of this. Women don't have a huge problem with other women seeing them in a state of undress. It's not about the sexuality of the person, it's about the sex of their body. They do have a problem with men seeing them undressed and it's entirely irrelevant whether the man is straight, gay or bi, and even if he's heroically looking away. And it's absolutely irrelevant if he's wearing a dress and makeup and calling himself Susan, he still has a male body.

This is an article that may go some way to explaining this fairly visceral reaction. A Girl's Place In The World

 

[Minoosh]

Are you actually female? I've lost track of this.

Yep.

Women don't have a huge problem with other women seeing them in a state of undress. It's not about the sexuality of the person, it's about the sex of their body. They do have a problem with men seeing them undressed and it's entirely irrelevant whether the man is straight, gay or bi, and even if he's heroically looking away. And it's absolutely irrelevant if he's wearing a dress and makeup and calling himself Susan, he still has a male body.

You know, it's possible your generalizations don't apply to everybody. I've encountered many women who practice locker-room modesty. When I lived alone, I used to be naked a lot more. Now I live with my mother, and I don't have the same comfort level.

This is an article that may go some way to explaining this fairly visceral reaction. A Girl's Place In The World

Interesting article.

 

[Rolfe]

I do realise it varies and from what I hear from men in this thread nearly all women are more into at least a token towel and spending as short a period as possible baring all. But I've never come across a woman who behaved modestly in a changing room because she was worried one of the other women might be a lesbian.

In my experience it's all about the bodies. Breasts and hips and no obvious dangly bits, no aversive reaction. Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges, not all right.

 

[d4m10n]

How would you know that they weren't biological men pretending to be transmen to sneak into ladies toilets?

Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges, not all right.

Ummm...

 

[Rolfe]

Different situations.

 

[cullennz]

It's back to the "kind fiction" and the tolerance. If this self-ID nonsense is knocked back and we can get to a point where the legal situation is that nobody with a functional penis is permitted to use the women's facilities, then hopefully we can go back to turning a kindly blind eye to the occasional doubtful case. And hopefully men can do the same for passing "transmen".

But as Dragon Lady says, masculinised women are still women and always will be, and any way there is of being a woman should be welcomed. Just as any way there is of being a man should be welcomed in the men's spaces.

I have never heard any man moan about transmen invading their spaces

It is a womens issue for obvious reasons

 

[8enotto]

I can't ever recall a female playing male in any restrooms in my life. Out in public in a mall or event, yes.

None of my friends ever mentioned it so it makes me wonder if they take pains to not be noticed in that need. Almost an aversion to public facilities as many have of every type.

 

[cullennz]

I can't ever recall a female playing male in any restrooms in my life. Out in public in a mall or event, yes.

None of my friends ever mentioned it so it makes me wonder if they take pains to not be noticed in that need. Almost an aversion to public facilities as many have of every type.

Think it might just be a cultural thing

People have become so accustomed to women having short hair, wearing trousers etc etc, that it isn't actually weird

Hairy obvious dudes wearing dresses and skirts and fake tits, not so much

 

[Minoosh]

I do realise it varies and from what I hear from men in this thread nearly all women are more into at least a token towel and spending as short a period as possible baring all. But I've never come across a woman who behaved modestly in a changing room because she was worried one of the other women might be a lesbian.

In my experience it's all about the bodies. Breasts and hips and no obvious dangly bits, no aversive reaction. Baritone voice, hairy chest and suspicious bulges, not all right.

This is going to sound like the lead-up to a bad joke but once in a Turkish bathhouse I spied a patron who, unlike the other women, was lying face-down on a huge stone slab where topless ladies pour warm buckets of suds on you and scrub you down. He left his panties on but so did other customers. Later, on the street, I was walking with my male traveling companion and saw the woman and said to him, "I think that's a man." My friend, who is bisexual and a connoisseur of pre-op "feminine"-looking men, agreed with me.

It didn't even occur to me to be offended - I was fairly certain he really, really wanted to be in women's spaces because he really wanted to be a full-fledged woman. Even if he was concealing an erection, I wouldn't have thought much of it because the atmosphere was intensely sensual. It made me wonder what Ottoman-era women got up to during idle times in the seraglio.

But then, that was a busy, quasi-public place. If I was alone in at night at a highway rest stop I'd be more suspicious of EVERYBODY. I would probably rate a woman as less threatening than a man.

Whenever I go to a convenience store late at night I imagine I see the cashier relax when they see a female customer. Much less likely to be a robber or a murderer or even a beer skip. Crime is higher among men pretty much across the board. Something like 90 percent of homicides are perpetuated by men. But as far as the restroom wars, all things being equal I would allow people who present themselves as female to use the ladies' loo.

 

[The Atheist]

Hairy obvious dudes wearing dresses and skirts and fake tits, not so much

Come to Auckland for a couple of weeks. Some of the fa'afaine fit that description perfectly. Lovely people, but not what I'd call aesthetically endowed.

I also wonder where they fit into the trans picture - some of them are male by day and female by night. Does that mean they go wherever they're dressed for?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

and any way there is of being a woman should be welcomed. .

Except the ones you don't like and refuse to accept.

You probably need to have a word with your sisters also about consistency

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...ed-out-of-a-ymca-locker-room-twice-because-im

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You know many reports of lesbians "perving out"? Is it something they're known for doing?

This is pretty horrible logic.

But its worse than that anyway. Apparently about 10% of rapes are female on female.

Female prison inmates are more likely to be sexually assaulted than male inmates and they are three times more likely to be assaulted by another female inmate than by a male officer.

In juvenile facilities women are much more likely to commit assaults than men (9 out of 10)

This silly idea that men are predators and women are always helpless victims needs to be stopped.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...y-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/95769958-f129-416c-9610-c8f96504ce77

 

[Lambchops]

Come to Auckland for a couple of weeks. Some of the fa'afaine fit that description perfectly. Lovely people, but not what I'd call aesthetically endowed.

I also wonder where they fit into the trans picture - some of them are male by day and female by night. Does that mean they go wherever they're dressed for?

Why do you care so much? Transgender people are like 0,5% of the population in any given country.
If you see that as a problem, that says a lot more about you than it does about them.

 

[TomB]

Which rules/laws specifically?

Most of the law is untested in court AFAIK.

Technically the answer to your question, I believe, is no, changes to the GRA shouldn't make a difference to matters relating to the Equality Act.

The grey area seems to be around interpretations of the Equality Act as it stands and exactly what rights that extends and to whom. But since those rights don't explicitly require a gender recognition certificate to obtain its hard to argue that changes to the process for getting one of those certificates would change the rights offered under that Act.

Enforcement is a different kettle of fish of course, but again, legally it already is. I think you also have to distinguish between matters of policy and individual actions.

It's not illegal to challenge someone who 'appears male' in the ladies' room. It probably would be to have a policy that everyone who 'appears male' in the ladies room should be challenged as a matter of course.

Of course, as it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell without more indepth knowledge of an individual whether they are transitioning or not but that doesn't mean that saying 'I am a woman' makes it so. In theory, it's also no different for a 'manly' looking cis-woman or, as others have noted, a transman using the ladies' room.

This being the case, my personal conclusion is that the best way to deal with it is simply to accept people using whatever facility they prefer on the understanding that there are standards of behaviour expected of anyone regardless of gender and that people acting in an 'iffy' manner are free to be challenged/ejected.

That didn't really address the inconsistency I was asking about.

You said:

There is nothing in any law, nor any proposed law, that would make it legal for a non-trans man to use a woman-only facility for any purpose - sexual gratification or not - even if they utter the magic words 'I am a woman'.

So, in regard to whatever laws you were referencing here that made it illegal for a non-trans man to use the women's room, how can that be enforced with this item you mentioned in mind:

The change which seems to have sparked the outrage is the proposal to switch to self ID rather than requiring a diagnosis.

To clarify, you say it remains illegal under any proposed changes in law for a non-trans man to use the women't room regardless of them saying they are female. Yet right before that, you reference proposed changes that make the criteria self ID rather than anything formal, like a diagnosis. If that is true, it does make it legal for any man to use the women't room as long as he claims a female identity when questioned on it.

Thus, the proposed switch to self ID makes laws or rules against non-trans men using the women's room unenforceable and, therefore, effectively legal.

 

[d4m10n]

A modest proposal:
https://twitter.com/sikivuhutch/status/748752618344722432

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That didn't really address the inconsistency I was asking about.

You said:


So, in regard to whatever laws you were referencing here that made it illegal for a non-trans man to use the women's room, how can that be enforced with this item you mentioned in mind:


To clarify, you say it remains illegal under any proposed changes in law for a non-trans man to use the women't room regardless of them saying they are female. Yet right before that, you reference proposed changes that make the criteria self ID rather than anything formal, like a diagnosis. If that is true, it does make it legal for any man to use the women't room as long as he claims a female identity when questioned on it.

Thus, the proposed switch to self ID makes laws or rules against non-trans men using the women's room unenforceable and, therefore, effectively legal.

No, I think you haven't read what I posted carefully enough.

Self-ID doesn't technically change the current situation regarding women's rooms at all. And nor does self-ID mean 'just saying you are a woman when questioned'

There are two separate things - the legal process for changing your gender and the legal requirements not to discriminate against people who are trans. Both appear to use different definitions and criteria.

Now I do agree that it makes it causes issues in enforcement but those issues must already exist and don't relate to the switch to self-ID. A man can currently claim to be a woman to anyone who challenges them in the ladies' room and I don't really know what happens from there. That's going to depend on the policy of the bathroom management. Huckle them out and take the chance that they are genuinely trans and you might have a discrimination complaint to defend, or let them finish what they are doing and leave?

Currently there are no laws that make it illegal for a man to use the womens' room (or vice versa) anyway. But there would be laws against a man exposing themself or acting inappropriately in there.