Trans Women are not Women

[Ziggurat]

If you continue to insist that sex-segregated spaces somehow provide physical safety, you're going to have to take up at least some burden of proof. You cannot expect us to simply assume a sign on the door is going to prove effective against someone bent upon violence.

Nothing short of precognition is going to stop someone bent upon violence. That is also exceptionally rare, and not the primary threat of concern here. The primary threat of concern is those who engage in violence OR other abusive behavior opportunistically. That's far, far more common, and can be prevented by means which aren't effective against someone "bent on" some course of action.

 

[DragonLady]

That's far, far more common, and can be prevented by means which aren't effective against someone "bent on" some course of action.

I agree. I think (although, I'm not a man and often can't fathom what they're thinking) if someone wakes up thinking "today I'm gonna rape someone" they're probably not likely to choose a public washroom as the best venue. I'd guess choosing a victim, then luring them to a much more secluded place would make more sense.

But I've always been more wary of those who just suddenly see a chance, and take it without much thought to the potential risks or consequences. They, IMO, are the ones more likely to be a threat in a washroom or other public space.

 

[d4m10n]

A bathroom is an enclosed room, with only one exit. It has running water that can be turned on to mask sounds, those using for it's intended purpose are likely to already in a more vulnerable position -partly undressed, purse with phone, deterrents like pepper spray or even weapons is on the floor or entirely out of reach. So it's just down to one-on-one physical strength, and that's where females always lose (no matter how much Hollywood likes to pretend otherwise).

Everything described above are risks being run right now, given current multiuser sex-segregated designs, which usually do not include secure locks or floor-to-ceiling doors.

A better design (such as the one I mentioned upthread) would not put women in a situation where they are so easily accessible to opportunistic predators.

 

[DragonLady]

A better design (such as the one I mentioned upthread) would not put women in a situation where they are so easily accessible to opportunistic predators.

Yes. Individual lockable cubicles/stalls are a pretty good idea.

But it still leaves a common area one must navigate, so I'm not sure it's really a solution. Once someone opens the door, they don't know who is in the cubicles. Once the outer door closes, they're still in an enclosed room with one exit. I assume the sinks will be in that common area, so there's still running water -and possibly hand dryers- to help mask noise. Same thing when leaving a cubicle; no way of knowing who is in the outer common area.

It is a good step in the right direction, though.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Might be mundane and obvious but still worth saying that human culture, like being trans, is not one thing: Undersize toilet stall doors are only an American thing in my experience, and felt distinctly weird when first encountered.

 

[Ziggurat]

A better design (such as the one I mentioned upthread) would not put women in a situation where they are so easily accessible to opportunistic predators.

It may be a better solution, but it's also a more expensive solution. It requires considerably more space, and is probably a complete non-starter for a lot of existing buildings.

 

[d4m10n]

It may be a better solution, but it's also a more expensive solution. It requires considerably more space, and is probably a complete non-starter for a lot of existing buildings.

It may require somewhat more space, though you don't require two totally separate sets of wet walls and pipes for sinks. You also reduce existing queuing inefficiencies which come about when the ladies room is full up but the gentlemen's isn't.

As to existing buildings, I'm not terribly worried. It's going to take longer to shift the relevant social norms than any prospective rebuild. Outhouses were still the norm when and where my grandad grew up, but eventually he moved into a house with plumbing.

 

[Ziggurat]

As to existing buildings, I'm not terribly worried. It's going to take longer to shift the relevant social norms than any prospective rebuild. Outhouses were still the norm when and where my grandad grew up, but eventually he moved into a house with plumbing.

People are attempting to shift the social norms far quicker than you can change buildings. That friction has to be resolved with our current physical infrastructure, which cannot change fast enough to accommodate the new demands.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

People are attempting to shift the social norms far quicker than you can change buildings. That friction has to be resolved with our current physical infrastructure, which cannot change fast enough to accommodate the new demands.

In the UK we have a legacy issue of poorly insulated houses which probably need addressing more urgently. And that's after we pay for all the flammable cladding to be stripped off previously upgraded buildings and replaced.

 

[TomB]

I really don't think retrofitting the stalls with floor to ceiling stalls with more secure locks would be as difficult as some are making it out to be. The layout of the room would not change. The plumbing would not change. The width of the stall walls would not change. Most of the time it would just be a matter of unbolting the old stall assemblies and installing the new ones. You don't have to build walls with studs and drywall.

Just update codes so that new construction and renovation requires the more secure/private assemblies. No it wouldn't happen overnight, but that's not an argument not to do it.

 

[Ziggurat]

I really don't think retrofitting the stalls with floor to ceiling stalls with more secure locks would be as difficult as some are making it out to be.

Maybe. But it's still not going to happen in most places.

 

[Francesca R]

I'd've thought that male predators would rather like the idea of a room where they can rest assured that rule-following, law-abiding males won't happen upon them while they are predating upon women.

Women will be safer if the directive of signs on sex-segregated places are switched from "female only" to "everyone allowed".

Yeah right. I'm sure women are jumping up and down in favour of that one.

 

[d4m10n]

Women will be safer if the directive of signs on sex-segregated places are switched from "female only" to "everyone allowed".

Everyone reading along can easily see that I'm advocating for redesigned integrated spaces (such as the one mentioned upthread) rather than simply changing out the signs on existing sex- or gender-segregated spaces. Maybe someone here is arguing for just changing around the signs, and you are of course welcome take it up with them.

ETA: Here's another example of a well-designed unisex bathroom, this time from Houston, TX.

 

[GlennB]

I really don't think retrofitting the stalls with floor to ceiling stalls with more secure locks would be as difficult as some are making it out to be. The layout of the room would not change. The plumbing would not change. The width of the stall walls would not change. Most of the time it would just be a matter of unbolting the old stall assemblies and installing the new ones. You don't have to build walls with studs and drywall.

Just update codes so that new construction and renovation requires the more secure/private assemblies. No it wouldn't happen overnight, but that's not an argument not to do it.

For my money that isn't the issue. It's a long time since I used a stall without a lock, and a gap at the bottom of the door is no biggie. The communal space outside the stalls appears to be the worry and making each stall self-sufficient in terms of washing, dispensing and disposal facilities would be extremely difficult, verging on the impossible in many cases.

 

[qayak]

Once again Western society is so far behind. Time to switch over to Asian squat toilets. They're all inclusive, so much better for your body, and far more hygenic than our outdated flush toilets.

 

[theprestige]

Once again Western society is so far behind. Time to switch over to Asian squat toilets. They're all inclusive, so much better for your body, and far more hygenic than our outdated flush toilets.

That has nothing to do with the topic, and doesn't solve any of the problems under discussion. Did you mean to post this in a different thread?

 

[Ziggurat]

Once again Western society is so far behind. Time to switch over to Asian squat toilets. They're all inclusive, so much better for your body, and far more hygenic than our outdated flush toilets.

Squat toilets are terrible for the elderly and infirm. And the most advanced toilets in the world are not Asian squat toilets, they're the Japanese sit-down toilets. They've got built-in heating, retractable bidet, air freshening... they're amazing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That has nothing to do with the topic, and doesn't solve any of the problems under discussion. Did you mean to post this in a different thread?

I don't know if it was intended to be so, but perhaps it's an analogy for redesigning bathrooms as an attempt to solve the rights conflict between one section of trans women who demand access to every female-only space and women who want spaces where biological males are excluded.

 

[Meadmaker]

I remember when unisex bathrooms were a scare tactic used to try to convince people not to vote for the Equal Rights Amendment.

 

[DragonLady]

I remember when unisex bathrooms were a scare tactic used to try to convince people not to vote for the Equal Rights Amendment.

Yeah; the slippery slope is a terrible argument 'til we land on our butts at the bottom.