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Trans Women are not Women

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Rolfe said:
It's knowing so much that we didn't know before. It's knowing that one of the transwomen you previously tolerated out of pity is a leading light in the anti "cotton ceiling" movement which is bullying and shaming lesbians into accepting male bodies as potential sex partners.

It's knowing that a proportion of the men who present as trans are doing this because the idea and the act of - infiltrating might be the best word - women's spaces is a serious turn-on for them.

It's seeing a future where any man who pleases, for any reason at all, can just walk into a ladies' room or indeed any other protected space or category and anyone who raises an objection faces the possibility of being accused of a hate crime.
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Yes. It goes beyond "what is being seen" into a whole lot of issues, including "what is being thought".

I just want to correct the idea that the issue here is that women are concerned that they might see a penis. I think that argument is used mostly to paint the women as uptight.

Anecdote: When the girls from Palatine, Illinois went to the school board to express their disapproval of sharing a locker room with a transgirl. After explaining their position, which included all sorts of discussions about body image and such, and repeated references to being completely or partially disrobed in "her" presence, one of the (male) school board members assured her that the transgirl had promised to always wear a towel around "her" waist. The girl who was there to object asked, "Can she put the towel around her eyes?"

I don't know why this is difficult for some people to grasp.
 
Meadmaker said:
The girl who was there to object asked, "Can she put the towel around her eyes?"

I don't know why this is difficult for some people to grasp.
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Perhaps because we share locker rooms with same-sex attracted people, without complaint, on a regular basis?
 
Men keep coming out with that comment as if it means something. I have no objection to sharing a changing room with same-sex-attracted women, and I don't know any woman who does. I have every objection to sharing a changing room with homosexual men, and I don't know any woman who doesn't.
 
Meadmaker said:
I don't know why this is difficult for some people to grasp.
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Could it because, even on this thread alone, those objecting to trans rights appear to disagree with what you say here and present a plethora of different arguments at least some of which seem at odds with each other and several which seem to change depending on the whims of the arguer?

It appears absolutely impossible to actually make any progress on this topic which is why it just descends into name calling and bullying from both sides.

This one topic seems to reduce people I otherwise have a lot of time for to froth-mouthed loons. I am not referring to just here either. Mind you plenty of people I had no time for in the first place also weigh in, almost singularly on one side of the argument. I don't think that's a coincidence.

When you find yourself saying 'I am not a bigot, I just think the bigots happen to be right on this one because they agree with me' it's time for a re-think.
 
Meadmaker said:
Yes. It goes beyond "what is being seen" into a whole lot of issues, including "what is being thought".

I just want to correct the idea that the issue here is that women are concerned that they might see a penis. I think that argument is used mostly to paint the women as uptight.

Anecdote: When the girls from Palatine, Illinois went to the school board to express their disapproval of sharing a locker room with a transgirl. After explaining their position, which included all sorts of discussions about body image and such, and repeated references to being completely or partially disrobed in "her" presence, one of the (male) school board members assured her that the transgirl had promised to always wear a towel around "her" waist. The girl who was there to object asked, "Can she put the towel around her eyes?"

I don't know why this is difficult for some people to grasp.
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I do know why it is difficult for some people, specifically me, to grasp.

I am a 65 year old male. My attractive years ended long ago. For my entire adult life I have had no problems with anyone seeing my naked body. In a public dressing room, nude beach, anywhere a person would expect to see people undressed I figure that people are welcome to look if they want to or not look if they do not want to.

My wife is a similar age and she is quite the opposite. She is very self-conscious of her aged body and does not want anybody, male or female, to see her. With her it has nothing to do with looking at her in a sexual manner. She just does not want to be seen, period.

The situation in your anecdote appears to be of a group of females who is rather selective in who is allowed to see their bodies. The reasons are not stated and are not clear. Is it because the person in question is trans? Is it because they have a penis? Is it because she the complainants view their own bodies as unattractive and are ashamed? Is it because they consider their bodies to be very attractive and only to be viewed by a privileged few? Is it because the viewer in question is not attractive in the view of the complainant? Is it because the complainants prefers only other women to see their bodies? Would they feel comfortable sharing a dressing room with men they find sexually attractive? Would she look at those men?

You have provided an anecdote practically devoid of any useful information and then criticized others for not “grasping” it.
 
Belz... said:
Who's objecting to trans rights?
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The argument, I guess, is that objecting to the right of trans people to use the restroom/locker of their choice is anti-trans right. I don’t think it follows as it implies that being against one potential “right” is being against trans rights in general.

This seems similar to gun rights arguments where if you favor any limitation of the rights you are against gun rights as a whole.


It occurs to me that the right to use the facilities of their choice is not a right that non-trans people have. I don’t have a right to use the women’s room. And women don’t have a right to use the men’s room. Yet no one has suggested that s trans woman on gaining the right to use women’s facilities forfeits the right to use men’s facilities.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Could it because, even on this thread alone, those objecting to trans rights appear to disagree with what you say here
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No. It could not, because in this thread alone, no one objecting to "trans rights" has disagreed with that particular observation, and rarely with any other particular observation.


and present a plethora of different arguments at least some of which seem at odds with each other and several which seem to change depending on the whims of the arguer?
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I have seen a plethora of arguments, but they are rarely at odds with each other.


Could it be that the way they appear and the way they seem to you might be a deficiency in your comprehension of what they are saying? If they seem contradictory, you don't understand them.


When it comes to facilities use, what they are saying is:

1. They don't want to take their clothes off around men.
2. Transwomen are men.


Everything else is pretty much embellishment of those basic statements.


When it comes to sporting events, here is what they are saying.

1. Men shouldn't compete in women's classes.
2. Transwomen are men.

(And in this case, there is somewhat more disagreement. Opinions on sporting participation aren't as uniform.)
 
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Rolfe said:
Men keep coming out with that comment as if it means something. I have no objection to sharing a changing room with same-sex-attracted women, and I don't know any woman who does. I have every objection to sharing a changing room with homosexual men, and I don't know any woman who doesn't.
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I am a both-sexes-attracted woman. I have no objection to sharing such private spaces with same-sex-attracted women and opposite-sex-attracted women. But I won't share the same with either opposite-sex-attracted men or same-sex-attracted men. There has never been a woman I have known not fine with sharing such space with me. No man I have known has ever presumed I would be interested in sharing such space with him. I know quite a few gay and bi men.

Could be something to do with a tacit agreement that I (at least) am both not interested in and hostile to any idea of sexual attraction in changing or similar facilities. I like to assume it is the same everyone else I know as well. But I don't know.
 
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Steve said:
I do know why it is difficult for some people, specifically me, to grasp.

I am a 65 year old male. My attractive years ended long ago. For my entire adult life I have had no problems with anyone seeing my naked body. In a public dressing room, nude beach, anywhere a person would expect to see people undressed I figure that people are welcome to look if they want to or not look if they do not want to.

My wife is a similar age and she is quite the opposite. She is very self-conscious of her aged body and does not want anybody, male or female, to see her. With her it has nothing to do with looking at her in a sexual manner. She just does not want to be seen, period.

The situation in your anecdote appears to be of a group of females who is rather selective in who is allowed to see their bodies. The reasons are not stated and are not clear. Is it because the person in question is trans? Is it because they have a penis? Is it because she the complainants view their own bodies as unattractive and are ashamed? Is it because they consider their bodies to be very attractive and only to be viewed by a privileged few? Is it because the viewer in question is not attractive in the view of the complainant? Is it because the complainants prefers only other women to see their bodies? Would they feel comfortable sharing a dressing room with men they find sexually attractive? Would she look at those men?

You have provided an anecdote practically devoid of any useful information and then criticized others for not “grasping” it.
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In relation to that particular anecdote, I did not give their reasoning, beyond "body image and such", but I described that the girls in the anecdote did in fact give their reasoning when they spoke to the school board, and that those reasons were related to them not wanting to be seen in various stages of undress.

The response of the city council member was to say, "She will wear a towel".


You may not understand, and the anecdote did not convey, the exact reasons for the girls' concerns, but the anecdote did note that the nature of their concerns was about being seen, and the council member provided a "solution" that didn't address the concerns in the least.

It's a scenario that gets repeated over and over.
 
Francesca R said:
I am a both-sexes-attracted woman. I have no objection to sharing such private spaces with same-sex-attracted women and opposite-sex-attracted women. But I won't share the same with either opposite-sex-attracted men or same-sex-attracted men. There has never been a woman I have known not fine with sharing such space with me. No man I have known has ever presumed I would be interested in sharing such space with him. I know quite a few gay and bi men.

Could be something to do with a tacit agreement that I (at least) am both not interested in and hostile to any idea of sexual attraction in changing or similar facilities. I like to assume it is the same everyone else I know as well. But I don't know.
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Why, though? If the objection isn't based on potential sexual interest, then what is the source of this desire to not be seen by the opposite sex?
 
Wondered if I would get that question.

Regardless of who I may be attracted to or not attracted to, regardless of who may or may not be attracted to me, I am a woman, and I know in which areas and which situations I feel personally vulnerable. All the data in the world isn't going to change that. I attempted to outline above why it is rational. I think it is. I am grateful for the extent to which societies implicitly agree with me and accommodate it. I want that preserved.

Make any sense? No sense?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Why, though? If the objection isn't based on potential sexual interest, then what is the source of this desire to not be seen by the opposite sex?
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I hope that's a rhetorical question?

Religion and morality hammered into humans for thousands of years. is the source.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Why, though? If the objection isn't based on potential sexual interest, then what is the source of this desire to not be seen by the opposite sex?
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Politics -> Rape culture -> sexual abuse.

Rape is about power (subjugation), not "sexual interest". It is violence.
 
JihadJane said:
Politics -> Rape culture -> sexual abuse.

Rape is about power (subjugation), not "sexual interest". It is violence.
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This is pure dogma, it never had any actual evidence to back it up. Of course rape is about sexual interest. It isn’t only about sexual interest, but that absolutely is a normal component of the act.
 
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