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Trans Women are not Women

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This is worth a read.

Kristina Harrison, who is herself trans, was asked which rights did women have that were in danger from the current incarnation of ‘trans rights’. She gave the following answer.

“The right of the oppressed to organise their own self-defence against sexism. The right to define themselves & uphold the legitimacy of their shared experience of socialisation & biological struggles. The right to be represented equally and by women. The right to male-free spaces such as rape crisis centres, domestic violence shelters, feminist meetings. The right to scholarships addressing female disadvantage. The right to strive for a more level playing field in sport, not have a more unequal one imposed. The right to exclusive same-sex love without being shamed or undermined as genital fetishists or slurred as bigots by homophobic gender ideologues. The right to accurate statistics so that we can best understand & challenge sex-based disadvantage & respond to service needs. The right to basic democratic rights, to assemble, debate, meet with political representatives, to play a full role in political life advancing feminist politics without intimidation, demonisation, no-platforming, banning, losing livelihood, police intimidation, and vexatious lawsuits, threats or even violence. To protect children from the weakening of safeguarding best-practice and from having fixed and potentially damaging labels attached to them which may prevent them from getting the support they really need and railroad them toward being permanently medicalised with irreversible treatments which may not be appropriate for them.

“Now here’s my question,” she concluded. “How can you support these injustices?”
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https://medium.com/@glinner/goodbye-to-all-this-bf13c22bf0d3
 
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theprestige said:
Serious question: Why can't transwomen just use the men's restroom?
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The reason usually put forward is that the transwomen are harassed by the males. That may occur occasionally, but the real reason is that transwomen want the validation of being considered female.
 
Marcus said:
The reason usually put forward is that the transwomen are harassed by the males..
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The ones who pass as women would at least get some male sideeye, given the pervasive social norm that restrooms must be segregated.

Probably goes without saying that passable transmen will experience at least as much hassle in the ladies.
 
This really, really isn't about the tiny minority of transwomen who actually look like women (or indeed transmen who look like men). It's about giving carte blanche to anyone at all to walk into the ladies' without any fear of challenge.

"Excuse me, Mr. Beardy Bloke, this is the ladies'."

"You have misgendered me, this is transphobic hate speech, I'm calling the cops."
 
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Marcus said:
The reason usually put forward is that the transwomen are harassed by the males. That may occur occasionally, but the real reason is that transwomen want the validation of being considered female.
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I think it is, or at least was, a legitimate concern. Attitudes have shifted, a lot, in just the last decade or two. A guy in a dress walking into a public men's room probably wasn't safe a decade ago, and certainly not two decades ago.

Today? I'm not sure.

However, that's a really awkward reason to base public policy on, because I have also read stories where a transwoman goes into the ladies' room, and is recognized as a male. A woman comes out and tells boyfriend/husband that there is a man in the women's room, and the guys beat up the transwoman for that. In other words, I can understand the concern about using the male facilities, but allowing them to use the female facilities also doesn't solve the problem. I think today there would be much less beating than in years past, regardless of choice of facilities, but I can understand that there is still a legitimate anxiety about being trans around certain males.


I note that we are talking about bathrooms again. I made an interesting obvservation the other day. I did some googling of old news stories about Lila Perry, the trans high schooler who wanted to use girls' facilities in Missouri a few years back, and was met with protests. I noticed that most of the media sources referred to her wanting to use the girls' bathroom, while Fox and Breitbart referred to the girls' locker room.

The issues involved in the two facilities have some overlap, but they really are different, and one of them plays much better for the trans activist side, while the other plays much better for the conservative side. I remember in the comments at the time that the protesting girls mostly referred to locker room use.
 
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GlennB said:
That's self-evidently true and I have no idea why you even bothered to type it.
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Because someone (that I even quoted in my post) directly asked the explicit question! Is this the serious open debate people have been craving on the topic? Seriously?
 
Rolfe said:
This really, really isn't about the tiny minority of transwomen who actually look like women (or indeed transmen who look like men). It's about giving carte blanche to anyone at all to walk into the ladies' without any fear of challenge.

"Excuse me, Mr. Beardy Bloke, this is the ladies'."

"You have misgendered me, this is transphobic hate speech, I'm calling the cops."
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Yes, as it has been described in this thread, the small number who were committed enough to be accepted as honorary women was one thing, accepting any dude with a full package claiming he is a woman is another.


Sorry dude, if you have the male equipment, you are male, regardless of the feeling inside your head.
 
d4m10n said:
So it's okay w/ you if trans folks who consistently pass use the restroom where they wouldn't raise eyebrows?
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Go and read my previous posts about this. Women have been quietly accepting even transwomen who don't pass for decades. We believed these were post-operative transsexuals who were just trying to fit in and get on with their lives. We reminded ourselves that they didn't have easy lives and squashed our natural wariness of actual males and smiled and tried to make them feel at ease. It's likely some of these people weren't post-op but we assumed they were and generally everyone rubbed along.

Now this "kind fiction" where we agreed to treat these transwomen as if they were women has been blown apart. We're assailed by men insisting transwomen literally have female bodies, even if they've had no surgery and even if they don't take hormones. We discover that only about 20% of transwomen ever have any surgery and even then most of it is breast implants or facial feminisation - I'm not sure of the exact figure but it's somewhere north of 90% of men who identify as trans who retain their full set of male genitalia.

This is why all previous bets are off. When you see large muscular men wearing t-shirts reading "Die Cis Scum" wielding pink baseball bats with barbed wire wrapped round them called "Terf Basher", when you read tweets where men in lipstick are gloating that they want to rape a terf to death, you kind of rethink your priorities a bit.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think it is, or at least was, a legitimate concern. Attitudes have shifted, a lot, in just the last decade or two. A guy in a dress walking into a public men's room probably wasn't safe a decade ago, and certainly not two decades ago.

Today? I'm not sure.

However, that's a really awkward reason to base public policy on, because I have also read stories where a transwoman goes into the ladies' room, and is recognized as a male. A woman comes out and tells boyfriend/husband that there is a man in the women's room, and the guys beat up the transwoman for that. In other words, I can understand the concern about using the male facilities, but allowing them to use the female facilities also doesn't solve the problem. I think today there would be much less beating than in years past, regardless of choice of facilities, but I can understand that there is still a legitimate anxiety about being trans around certain males.


I note that we are talking about bathrooms again. I made an interesting obvservation the other day. I did some googling of old news stories about Lila Perry, the trans high schooler who wanted to use girls' facilities in Missouri a few years back, and was met with protests. I noticed that most of the media sources referred to her wanting to use the girls' bathroom, while Fox and Breitbart referred to the girls' locker room.

The issues involved in the two facilities have some overlap, but they really are different, and one of them plays much better for the trans activist side, while the other plays much better for the conservative side. I remember in the comments at the time that the protesting girls mostly referred to locker room use.
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Girls bathrooms always seem to have individual stalls, most females (what do I know , I'm male) seem to be able to tolerate people with male equipment there. Locker rooms are different, changing and showering with the dicks isn't acceptable to most and I don't blame them.
 
Marcus said:
Yes, as it has been described in this thread, the small number who were committed enough to be accepted as honorary women was one thing, accepting any dude with a full package claiming he is a woman is another.

Sorry dude, if you have the male equipment, you are male, regardless of the feeling inside your head.
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It's even more complicated than that. Obviously women are not going to demand a genital inspection before tolerating an obvious transwoman in the ladies'. The problem is that the aggressive, bullying trans activists have destroyed the previous "don't ask don't tell" polite fiction that got everyone by.

I used to do it. I had completely swallowed the diktat that transwomen were vulnerable fragile flowers who had gone through major surgery and the kind thing to do was to pretend that they didn't stand out like sore thumbs and be nice to them. I did that. One of my male friends transitioned and I used to talk to him at parties and agree that his skin was getting softer and he did have a more feminine figure and so on, wilfully ignoring the fact that he looked distinctly peculiar.

That was twenty years ago, at least. What's going on now is so far removed from that, it's unreal. The aggression, the bullying, the gaslighting, the strident demands, the male entitlement etc. have destroyed the understanding, maybe forever. Very few transwomen actually pass, as in we don't notice, rather than, yes we do notice but we're being nice about it. Now we know what we know, continuing to be nice about it just went into arbitration and is looking to be under serious threat.
 
Marcus said:
Girls bathrooms always seem to have individual stalls, most females (what do I know , I'm male) seem to be able to tolerate people with male equipment there. Locker rooms are different, changing and showering with the dicks isn't acceptable to most and I don't blame them.
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That first part is a bit more complicated. Being kind to someone you believe is a postoperative transwoman is one thing. Being told that anyone can say he's a woman and go where he likes and if you express any discomfort you're likely to find yourself accused of a hate crime is something else.
 
Marcus said:
Girls bathrooms always seem to have individual stalls, most females (what do I know , I'm male) seem to be able to tolerate people with male equipment there. Locker rooms are different, changing and showering with the dicks isn't acceptable to most and I don't blame them.
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Precisely.

And, to emphasize a point that I have made repeatedly in the past, it really isn't what the ladies are seeing that's the problem, it is what is being seen, and knowing who is seeing it.
 
Meadmaker said:
And, to emphasize a point that I have made repeatedly in the past, it really isn't what the ladies are seeing that's the problem, it is what is being seen, and knowing who is seeing it.
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It's knowing so much that we didn't know before. It's knowing that one of the transwomen you previously tolerated out of pity is a leading light in the anti "cotton ceiling" movement which is bullying and shaming lesbians into accepting male bodies as potential sex partners.

It's knowing that a proportion of the men who present as trans are doing this because the idea and the act of - infiltrating might be the best word - women's spaces is a serious turn-on for them.

It's seeing a future where any man who pleases, for any reason at all, can just walk into a ladies' room or indeed any other protected space or category and anyone who raises an objection faces the possibility of being accused of a hate crime.
 
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