Trans Women are not Women

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If there's an argument that class A of people cannot share a bathroom with class B because of the embarrassment and discomfort it causes, .

That's not the argument I am making.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, read again. What I said and several others have too.

Most of those things - and other options also mentioned - don't exist in a ***** cubicle. Which is where you want women to do their stuff, according to your post to which I was responding:

"because I assumed women would be doing these things in cubicles rather than in communal areas"

You assumed wrongly, and have quintuple-downed since. I lost track, in fact. Dodecadupled-down?

You get what you need, go into a cubicle, do what you need to do, come out and wash your hands and use the bins or whatever else you need to do. FFS. I mean give women some credit for being able to apply common sense!

 

[JihadJane]

You get what you need, go into a cubicle, do what you need to do, come out and wash your hands and use the bins or whatever else you need to do. FFS. I mean give women some credit for being able to apply common sense!

What do you do with your children?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But you asserted that rights were being denied to the trans-group. What right is that? Right to go to be bathroom of your gender? Where do otherkin go?

The right to go to the bathroom of your gender, yes.

Imagine what kind of uproar there would be if a place decided that ... oh lets take something ridiculous... if you have boobs smaller than a B cup you aren't a real woman and you need to use the man's toilets.

That would be denying those women a right, agree? And that's pretty obvious to you because you disagree with that definition of a woman. But changing the definition does not alter the fact that you are denying a right based on that definition.

You may agree that it is correct to deny that right based on a different definition, but it is still denying a right.

I don't know where otherkin go... where do they want to go?

 

[Meadmaker]

I mean give women some credit for being able to apply common sense!

In this particular conversation, they seem to be applying it so much that there isn't enough left for everyone else.

 

[JihadJane]

The right to go to the bathroom of your gender, yes.

Imagine what kind of uproar there would be if a place decided that ... oh lets take something ridiculous... if you have boobs smaller than a B cup you aren't a real woman and you need to use the man's toilets.

That would be denying those women a right, agree? And that's pretty obvious to you because you disagree with that definition of a woman. But changing the definition does not alter the fact that you are denying a right based on that definition.

You may agree that it is correct to deny that right based on a different definition, but it is still denying a right.

I don't know where otherkin go... where do they want to go?

Bathrooms are segregated by sex, not gender

 

[d4m10n]

Bathrooms are segregated by sex, not gender

Are they, though?

Back when we first set about segregating public water closets, we didn't have a separable concepts of sex and gender. If you were born a girl, you were expected to become ladylike in due course.

 

[GlennB]

The right to go to the bathroom of your gender, yes.

Imagine what kind of uproar there would be if a place decided that ... oh lets take something ridiculous... if you have boobs smaller than a B cup you aren't a real woman and you need to use the man's toilets.

That would be denying those women a right, agree? And that's pretty obvious to you because you disagree with that definition of a woman. But changing the definition does not alter the fact that you are denying a right based on that definition.

That's self-evidently true and I have no idea why you even bothered to type it. What we're discussing here is which definition to use when rights are assigned, and attempting to justify that choice.

 

[Information Analyst]

Assuming you know like 90 per cent of the trans population, and are a psychologist or the like your point is valid.

Otherwise it is like saying guns are not dangerous because you own 2 water pistols.

Your crystal ball tells you about my circle of friends and acquaintances? Impressive.

 

[Belz...]

Are they, though?

Back when we first set about segregating public water closets, we didn't have a separable concepts of sex and gender. If you were born a girl, you were expected to become ladylike in due course.

I'm not sure the separate concepts make sense even today.

 

[Meadmaker]

We really shouldn't be talking about a "right" to use a facility, or play in a sports league. If access to facilities, etc was really the issue, we could maximize the rights of everyone by allowing everyone to access anything.

The key feature of the facility that is associated with use of the facility is not the facility itself. The key feature is the wall.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not sure the separate concepts make sense even today.

To be clear, I was thinking more about gender presentation than a subjective feeling which can only be grokked from the inside, since we tend to make judgements based on external appearances.

For example, suppose I bump into Buck Angel^WP in the men's. I'm not about to say it would make more sense for him to use the ladies.

 

[JihadJane]

Are they, though?

Back when we first set about segregating public water closets, we didn't have a separable concepts of sex and gender. If you were born a girl, you were expected to become ladylike in due course.

Yes, they are. Sex is defined by biology. Gender is a mutable social construct that enables oppression on the basis of sex (eg be ladylike).

Women fought to have separate facilities for their own safety, to protect themselves from men. In many parts of the world this fight continues.

e.g. https://blogs.oxfam.org/en/blogs/18-08-24-working-women-rohingya-refugee-camps-make-toilets-safer

Access to water and sanitation are UN-declared human rights

 

[GlennB]

We really shouldn't be talking about a "right" to use a facility, or play in a sports league. If access to facilities, etc was really the issue, we could maximize the rights of everyone by allowing everyone to access anything.

If the absolute number with access is key then, yes, that's right. But if we consider the quality of access then there are other considerations. Perhaps we should consult Jeremy Bentham^WP before the women's sports events are overrun with men?

The key feature of the facility that is associated with use of the facility is not the facility itself. The key feature is the wall.

I didn't quite understand this, but maybe you're referring to what I wrote above.

 

[d4m10n]

Sex is defined by biology. Gender is a mutable social construct that enables oppression on the basis of sex (eg be ladylike).

When I say gender I mean something much more like what you’d find in Merriam-Webster (2b) than the morally freighted definition you are hauling in here.

Women fought to have separate facilities for their own safety, to protect themselves from men.

Funnily enough, I’ve seen this sort of response before.

Is there an argument for sex-segregated spaces which doesn't rely on demonizing men?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is there an argument for sex-segregated spaces which doesn't rely on demonizing men?

If there is I ain't seen it yet.

"Penises attached to heterosexual cis-males are the enemy" seems to the one thing the trans community and the anti-trans bigots agree on.

This has been in the margins for a while now and it kind of needs to get brought, kicking and screaming if must be, to the surface.

 

[DragonLady]

"Penises attached to heterosexual cis-males are the enemy in the female washroom" seems to the one thing the trans community and the anti-trans bigots agree on.

Fixed it for you.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Fixed it for you.

Sexist, rubbish nonsense.

The one keeping me from fully embracing mainstream feminism is it encourages women to react to men the way homophobes react to gay men, as a constant predatory threat.

- Man afraid that a gay man in the locker room is gonna rape him, homophobe.
- Person afraid that a transgender person in the locker room is gonna molest/rape them, transphobe
- Woman afraid that straight, cisgendered man is... well just rape them at the drop of a hat in any possible circumstance, no restrictions at all. Perfectly fine.

I'm getting really tired of being the only demographic that people can demand broad, across the board "protection" from.

 

[DragonLady]

- Man afraid that a gay man in the locker room is gonna rape him, homophobe.
- Person afraid that a transgender person in the locker room is gonna molest/rape them, transphobe
- Woman afraid that straight, cisgendered man is... well just rape them at the drop of a hat in any possible circumstance, no restrictions at all. Perfectly fine.

So...……… How much of a perceived thread do you think one should find acceptable?


Fact: men rape women, men, children, and animals. Therefore, animals, children, men, and women have a reason to be afraid men will rape them.

You seem to be saying that since those things only happen sometimes, no one should ever be afraid of it -or should only be afraid to some small degree. If that's correct, to what degree do you think it's acceptable for an individual to fear this happening?

 

[Belz...]

Fact: men rape women, men, children, and animals.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.