Trans Women are not Women

[Ziggurat]

It really is funny to me to watch two sides fight so fervently over where the line must be drawn while being equally unresponsive to the simple suggestion that there just shouldn't be a line.

It seems both anti-trans bigots and pro-trans supporters are really, really, really keen on the idea that they just have to have a bathroom where some quantify of "the other" isn't allowed in for vague reasons of privacy, safety or whatever, they are just fighting over where to drawn the line.

In regards to the bathroom issue, I'm a man, so it doesn't really matter that much to me. But it matters to women. Several posters have expounded on the reason, but I don't really need to parse out why, it suffices to observe that it does.

So here's the nut of the problem as I see it. If women in general want something, they're going to get it. That's the way western society works. Feminists would disagree, but feminists don't seem to understand most women any better than men do, and so confuse their personal desires for the desires of most women (for example, most women don't want to be CEO's). Men are conditioned to cater to women, and so we will mostly go along with what they mostly want.

Which means that sex segregation is here to stay. Men can't get rid of it even if we wanted to, and women want it so they get it. The transgender question throws a wrench in the issue because it's claiming privileges for men which are supposed to be reserved for women. And women may be willing to tolerate that... to a point. But if transgender activists push too hard, they will reach that point. And then they will lose. And when they lose, it won't be because they're wrong, or inconsistent, or any of that other stuff. It will be because women don't like their position. And women always win these culture battles. I don't claim to know exactly at what point that will happen, when women will become fed up with the transgender activists. But that's when their quest will hit a brick wall that they won't be able to bulldoze through.

 

[GlennB]

Deleted. Ziggurat can't possibly be serious. My mistake for rising to obvious irony.

 

[d4m10n]

Even a casual glance through this thread will reveal the answer. Because for both of the major sides in this discussion is vitally important that there is an "other" who isn't allowed in "their space."

An attitude which makes perfect sense to me at times, much less so at other times.

If old school lesbians want to have an all-woman nude beach festival, well, that's none of my business. I'll be off minding my own, thanks.

As to toilets in places of public accommodation, well, that strikes me as a design problem.

Here's one idea:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Locatio...421387-The_Modern-New_York_City_New_York.html

 

[8enotto]

I used to work in retail building maintenance. I was the idiot with the mop after someone dropped something or left a horrible mess in a bathroom.

A female employee had to verify the ladies room was vacant before I could enter during store hours. I could only enter to clean up a mess or empty trash buckets if need be.

The men's room had to be checked every few hours but rarely needed anything but a paper roll replaced.

After hours both were made right for the next day. I cannot imagine why anyone unless in dire emergency state would want to go in the ladies room after about 5 in the afternoon, even with vent fans running all day.

No need for pseudo peer acceptance or reaffirming a presumed identity was worth that. Squatting out back by the dumpster would have smelled better.

 

[Shepherd]

"Behind every good man..." ...is a secretly evil matriarch who has her husband by the balls.

 

[Belz...]

Deleted. Ziggurat can't possibly be serious. My mistake for rising to obvious irony.

You mean in the post above yours? Seems pretty serious to me.

 

[jeremyp]

Private enough to allow people who choose to do so to do whatever they want discreetly away from the eyes or presence of other people. Especially if that thing is something they would otherwise be comfortable doing in front of other women.
.

The problem with your argument is that you could equally apply it to trans women. There are cubicles in men's rooms too. Why can't they use those?

If there's an argument that class A of people cannot share a bathroom with class B because of the embarrassment and discomfort it causes, you can't accept the argument when class A is trans women and dismiss it when class A is biological women.

 

[Crawtator]

The problem with your argument is that you could equally apply it to trans women. There are cubicles in men's rooms too. Why can't they use those?

If there's an argument that class A of people cannot share a bathroom with class B because of the embarrassment and discomfort it causes, you can't accept the argument when class A is trans women and dismiss it when class A is biological women.

Actually, this is the weird part of the argument for me. Both sides are screaming, "Yes we can dismiss it because..." GET READY FOR IT...

FEELINGZ

And I still haven't gotten an answer on what right is being deprived of the transgroup that isn't being deprived of the otherkins or various other self-identified gender groups. The discussion collapses when the new theories arise that gender is not only non-binary, but infinite in variety. What do we do with this information?

In terms of restrooms, my feeling is that we either agree as a society to make completely isolated bathroom areas for all groups (like the picture of separate doors posted above, as long as they adequately accomodate all parties) or we continue with the status quo and you go in the bathroom of your sex. I don't claim to know if I'm right, but I can recognize the problems that the gentleladies here are espousing.

As far as sports, I think that biological males compete against biological males and biological females compete against biological females. The governing bodies of each sport should be able to make the most intelligent decision in what test is used for its purposes.

 

[Steve]

The problem with your argument is that you could equally apply it to trans women. There are cubicles in men's rooms too. Why can't they use those?

Why indeed? Where is the problem?

If there's an argument that class A of people cannot share a bathroom with class B because of the embarrassment and discomfort it causes, you can't accept the argument when class A is trans women and dismiss it when class A is biological women.

That does not appear to be an argument that Archie Gemmill Goal is making.

 

[JoeMorgue]

ETA: Thread moved too fast, added who I was responded to for clarity.

Actually, this is the weird part of the argument for me. Both sides are screaming, "Yes we can dismiss it because..." GET READY FOR IT...

FEELINGZ

Because the second we as a society sort of vaguely agreed to something that sort of looks like "Your feelings don't matter" a lot of people started trying to redefine their feelings as something else.

It's the core of a lot of arguments from a lot of people.

 

[Steve]

As far as sports, I think that biological males compete against biological males and biological females compete against biological females. The governing bodies of each sport should be able to make the most intelligent decision in what test is used for its purposes.

IMO in sports the best should compete against the best regardless of any classification. The classifications come into play for those who cannot compete with the best but wish to compete/test their skills against others of similar ability. These classifications will always have an arbitrary aspect to them and some cases will be borderline. That will never be eliminated.

Categories could include, but are not limited to:

- sex/gender
- weight/size
- age
- physical disability
- mental disability

I agree that the individual governing sports are entitled to make the decision. Organizations that encompass many sports, such as the IOC should not be involved in these decisions - they should accept the decisions of the sport's governing bodies.

 

[GlennB]

You mean in the post above yours? Seems pretty serious to me.

Yes, that post. I'll wait for Ziggurat to confirm its seriousness

 

[Francesca R]

So here's the nut of the problem as I see it. If women in general want something, they're going to get it. That's the way western society works.

Such optimism is mildly encouraging

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, that post. I'll wait for Ziggurat to confirm its seriousness

I've intentionally left out quite a bit of subtlety for effect, but no, I'm not joking.

 

[Meadmaker]

IMO in sports the best should compete against the best regardless of any classification.

I think where all of this plays into sports is that sports should encourage, recognize, and inspire great athletic performances. One element of that is that is to provide a role model to kids or others to be active, to try harder. You want to look at the winners of a competition and have people say they want to be like those people.

Women's athletics works for that. The winners are extraordinary athletes. Girls who see them compete can aspire to be like those girls (I'm mixing up high school and adult and whatever). Sure, the winners in the girls competition can't beat the boys, but they are nevertheless impressive athletes, because they had natural ability and they worked and trained and came out on top. They are healthy, fit, probably good looking, and something to aspire to.

Unless there's a transgirl in the race. Terry Miller, the Connecticut track star, competed in the boys' group last winter. He was ok. Nothing great. No medals. Then he announced he was a girl. State champion, record breaker, and "athlete of the year".


I guess.

 

[Baylor]

Not sure what is causing you an issue.

There is no general requirement or right to have access to sex segregated toilets. Where they exist, trans people (and cis people) have a right to access the facility appropriate to their gender.*

*In the UK, the law limits this right to an extent by stipulating that where it is necessary trans people may be excluded. But this is not a general right to deny trans people access without good reason

Or in other words, places may have no toilets, private toilet cubicles, non-segregated toilets, gender-segregated toilets or sex-segregated toilets depending on their specific circumstances.

By analogy, there is no right to have a baker make you a wedding cake. But where they offer wedding cakes they shouldn't be denying this service to gay people.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Men don't belong in women's bathrooms and if they go in there will be punitive measures taken against them. It's really that simple.

 

[Matthew Best]

Tumblr can rant and scream about it all they want but a women's basketball hoop is shorter, women's Olympic swimming pools are smaller, every single record that objectively measures speed over distance, weight lifted, object thrown, etc is held by a man

No, they're not.

 

[Puppycow]

No, they're not.

For that matter, the height of the basketball hoop is the same as for the men, too. (In WNBA at least)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't know, seems to me like that was a pretty accurate parody of Arcade22's arguments.

I would like to say I am surprised. I would like to say that.

 

[Meadmaker]

Actually, this is the weird part of the argument for me. Both sides are screaming, "Yes we can dismiss it because..." GET READY FOR IT...

FEELINGZ

There's nothing wrong with worrying about feelings. "The feelz" or "FEELINGZ" gets kind of a bad rep because sometimes it is used to override reality.



When it comes to who sees you without your clothes on, it really is all, or at least mostly, about feelings. There is a legitimate safety element in some situations, but it's mostly about feelings.