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Trans Women are not Women

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Belz... said:
Well perhaps you could help us out by explaining what gender is, at its core.
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It’s feels all the way down, Belz... and therefore worthy of nothing but your derision.

ETA: Oooh or try: Sure, as soon as you define God. And get it right for every single person out there.
 
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I’m not talking about how you feel about trans people, I’m talking about how every time I’ve engaged you on gender you’ve been a doody head to me. :p
 
Which claim, that you pooh-pooh things that are basically just feelings? I have to admit I was just being sassy and going on my impressions, I do not have any quotes on notecards on that one.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I get that that is always going to basically Progressivism's answer to everything, but that's not... how reality works. Okay?

Maybe that is really what I can't get to. Since there no meaningful non-biological differences, I can't get a grip on this.

That's why transgenderism does strike me as absurd on the surface. It's going "I'm 5 foot 4 but identify as 6 foot 2." Because... that's all gender is to me. Biology. It's on the same level as height or blood type or whether or not you have attached earlobes.

Everything else is society imposed bullcrap, that I got over a long time ago.

Conceptualizing and phrasing "I want gender roles to go away" as "I am allowed to literally self define some immutable trait about myself" just strikes me as the stupidest, least logical, and most counter-productive way possible of doing it.
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I agree with a lot of your points. I have always found transsexualism confusing myself. I don't have anything against transsexuals, and I think anyone should identify with the gender they feel most comfortable in, but I have trouble wrapping my head around it, especially when it comes to gender stereotypes etc.

Of course, I don't know how transsexuals feel, so it's hard for me to make any judgments, and I even feel odd talking about it. The way I have always imagined it is "What if I woke up as a woman tomorrow?" Is that how they feel? Is there something about my brain that makes me feel comfortable in my body that is switched for them?

But now I already feel like I'm being patronising, because I 'm talking about something that is completely outside my sphere of experience, which is what makes this issue so complicated.
 
Lithrael said:
Which claim, that you pooh-pooh things that are basically just feelings? I have to admit I was just being sassy and going on my impressions, I do not have any quotes on notecards on that one.
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Right. You just made it up.

You might want to be a little more careful, especially in a thread where accusations of bigotry and finding trans suicide funny abound.
 
Holy shnikies! Belz..., I had mixed you up with an argument I had with Kevin Lowe. I actually do uncategorically apologize for my snark on that one.
 
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Francesca R said:
Oh so every biological male who gains access to female only toilets is just liberating us a little bit more each time?

Gee thanks / what on earth were we thinking.
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I used to frequently use women's toilets, and the only reactions I even got were humourous responses. "I hope you sat down!" "You really are a woman - you're washing your hands!" (Actual comments)

It's was a handy dodge at rugby games - the men's are always an inch deep in urine, with a queue of 1200 blokes, and you could generally wander into a women's toilet with no wait. Probably have security guards at the door these days - I haven't been to a game for years.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Well let's unpack that then.

If "women" deserve a... gah (I don't want to say "Safe Space" because of how that term has evolved but something in that ballpark without the baggage, fair enough?) to do private bodily functions the hows and why of that can be looked at.

Is it about being around people who simply... perform the functions differently from you? That raises question.

Is it about being around people who might find you sexually attractive or arousing when you are in a state of privacy? That... raises the same questions.

If a woman doesn't want a penis around her when she's going to the bathroom, regardless of the whys, that.... raises questions.

Again I'm not demanding some Bob level of across the board "You're not ideologically pure enough until your personal philosophy is so far removed from reality it's self destructive" here, but... stuff still has to make sense.
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Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me here?

If you are looking for someone to justify bathroom segregation i am not your man. i was just pointing out that while it may appear logical to eliminate segregated bathrooms it is not something that is likely to be accepted and therefore a compromise is to allow trans people to use the facility they wish to.

The situation with toys was different and therefore had a different solution.
 
Lithrael said:
This trouble is in your concept of gender as an immutable (?) measurable characteristic like height. I honestly think it’s better conceptualized like a belief system.
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I'm sure you meant that as a positive but sadly that's how it's reading more and more to me. That you can have all the defining characteristics of one gender but have "the soul" of the other and sadly I have to give it the same level of credence, none.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me here?
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Both. Neither. I'm a rational adult stating my opinions and concerns, you are the same. Let us not overly worry about assigning us to the proper side.

If you are looking for someone to justify bathroom segregation i am not your man. i was just pointing out that while it may appear logical to eliminate segregated bathrooms it is not something that is likely to be accepted and therefore a compromise is to allow trans people to use the facility they wish to.
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Your entire argument can't be that everything we currently do that you are comfortable with is "Just the way it is and unlikely to be accepted differently" while arguing to a massive change that makes people uncomfortable.

Your "Comfort Card" can't have a lower mana cost and higher hit points then everybody else's. The "Victim" Card is no longer allowed for league play for use as a modifier.
 
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Belz... said:
You asked me a question, and I answered using the definitions I found and a reasoning that made sense to me.

If you want to define "trans woman" as someone who identifies as a woman, whatever that means, then the term "transition" ceases to mean anything. They don't "transition" to anything; they alter their bodies to match their identity.
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I asked you a question and you answered. but it wasnt a satisfactory answer so i followed up.

You seem to have nailed exactly what transition is later on, altering their bodies to match their identity and yet you seem at odds with this definition while saying you support transition.

I have to say your reasoning seems incoherent now.

A trans person is someone who has a gender identity different to their physical bits and bobs. Regardless of transition. Transition is one possible treatment in which some or all of the internal workings and external bits are altered to match their identity.

A cisman would not require transitioning. Transitioning is only relevant to transpeople.

So i am honestly asking what you mean by supporting transitioning if you honestly believe it doesn't mean anything or change anything?

Belz... said:
Yeah but in the end the doctor relies on the patient's report. There's nothing they can examine with a microscope that'll tell them if you're trans, is there?
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indeed. which is the case for all kinds of disorders and conditions. But the doctor is not simply there to unquestioningly give a patient what they ask for and there is a process to ensure a treatment is appropriate. Yes, it is possible that a cisman could fake it, but why on earth would they want to? perhaps i should have more explicitly stated that a doctor would not knowingly transition a cisman because that would be an inappropriate treatment.

Your logic seemed to suggest that transitioning means going from cisman to transwoman. which is simply incorrect.

Meadmaker said:
You might be laboring under a very nimportant misconception. In modern parlance a transgender person need not alter themselves either chemically or physically. No hormones. No surgery. No medical evaluation. If a male states that he identifies as a woman, then "she" is a woman.

And anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

At least, that's the party line among trans rights activists.
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No, and this is part of the problem here. I was addressing a particular point about transitioning and that's been picked up on as a general point by you. but it wasnt intended to be. it was a specific line on inquiry on transitioning.

In fact, what i am saying is in line with your clarification. A transwoman is a transwoman regardless of transitioning.

Belz stated he supported transitioning, which to my mind would mean something like 'i am prepared to accept you as a woman if you have had sufficient surgery to satisfy my requirements' which i would probably still have issues with but i think would at least be coherent. But this appears not to be the case because AFAIK Belz does not accept transwomen as women under any circumstances.

JoeMorgue said:
And again as I keep pointing out this is the loop we're stuck in, can't get out of, and are called bigots for just noticing it exists.

I meet a person who is biologically X. Upon talking I learn that this person is biologically X but identifies as Y. Okay for this concept to mean anything I now have to treat or at the very least conceptualize this person differently. Something has to change of this entire thing is a charade, a gussied up distinction without difference.

So what changes? What? I meet this person who is biologically an X, I now know they are an X who identifies as a Y? What changes. Something has to change.

There has to be a variable here. Someone define that variable. I don't care what it is, just for the sake of argument we all have to agree there has to be one there.

Okay so now we have that variable. And here's the circles tries to square itself and fails.

That same variable, has to exist between biological X and biological Y to make any sense.

If a person who is biological X but identifies as a Y is a meaningful distinction that we can acknowledge at all from a biological X who identifies as an X... we have to, have to, have to, can't weasel out of it, can't "oh but it's complicated..." out of it, have to, have to, have to, applies that same meaningful distinction to the biological X and Y. Period. End of debate.

Let's look at it this way. Remember crossdressing? Used be a thing, probably still is in some fashion. It's when one sex dresses in clothing of the other sex. For that concept to mean anything you have think that certain clothing is only for one of the sexes. You have to have a standard for the idea of subverting the standard to make any sense.

Okay but what if you don't think that? What if you don't think certain clothing should only be worn by certain sexes? Does that mean you are "denying that crossdressers exist?" Does that mean you hate them or fear them? Of course not, that's silly.

That's all this is, just applied

I don't have a concept of "trans" gender because I don't apply any differences to the gender that aren't things that are pure base biology that you just can't change. Since I don't treat men and women different, I don't have anywhere to go when I'm told I have to, under threat of being called a bigot, treat a man with a penis and man with a penis who identifies as a woman differently.

I don't have unreasonable expectations for the sexes or genders, so I can't pat anyone on the back for subverting them. Telling me "I'm a man who identifies as a woman" hits me on the exact same level as "I'm a man who is sexually attracted to other men" or "I'm a man who wants to wear a dress." Since I don't think being attracted to men or wearing a dress "belong" to women as a group, I've got nothing to change about my mentality concerning you as a person.

Since I don't treat men and women differently (in the ways, on the level, and within the context we're talking here) when someone says "I'm a man who identifies as a woman" it's the same thing, I've got nothing to change about how I view the person.

All the people bending over backwards to play "More Progressive then Thou" about how accepting you are of Trans people are the one perpetuating gender stereotypes, even if purely conceptually. Everytime you change how you look at a person because they tell you they "identify as an X" you are putting a stereotype on X.

I'm not the one trying to create and sustain a paradox where a man and a man who identifies as a woman are different but... men and women aren't different. That's insane.

I'm not stupid. I know how this probably happened. The battle to get all these stupid, old, outmoded expectations that have been put on the sexes taken away has been stalled by the same old farts who have ruined everything since time immemorial as someone put it earlier in the thread we've adopted a "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" tactic to the whole thing, which is understandable and "Literally identify as the other gender as a way to get out of the expectations on my gender" is one of the things we've thrown against the wall.
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I think you might be tilting at windmills slightly. It seems that you are almost if not entirely almost there but think more is being demanded of you and you are confused.

let's first addressed the 'what changed' part. Forget biology. You dont know a person's biology when you interact with them. Lets say a new person starts at work. Their name is Ally. You pass them in the corridor. They are stout, muscular, wearing jeans and a loose fitting tshirt with heavy boots. They have short cropped hair. You ask who is the new guy. And someone mentions Ally is a girl. What changed? Nothing right?

Ally uses the.womens toilets nd nobody bats an eyelid. They address her as she etc. She is a woman after all.

But nobody actually knows do they? Short of a physical exam or intrusive medical tests you would never know if Ally is a ciswoman or a transwoman. So what's the problem in either case?

But I wouldnt treat them differently anyway you say! Great. You are doing life right then. But not everyone is like you. Some people would insist that Ally does need to be treated differently if she is trans. An that makes no sense to me.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I think you might be tilting at windmills slightly. It seems that you are almost if not entirely almost there but think more is being demanded of you and you are confused.

Again

let's first addressed the 'what changed' part. Forget biology. You dont know a person's biology when you interact with them. Lets say a new person starts at work. Their name is Ally. You pass them in the corridor. They are stout, muscular, wearing jeans and a loose fitting tshirt with heavy boots. They have short cropped hair. You ask who is the new guy. And someone mentions Ally is a girl. What changed? Nothing right?

Ally uses the.womens toilets nd nobody bats an eyelid. They address her as she etc. She is a woman after all.

But nobody actually knows do they? Short of a physical exam or intrusive medical tests you would never know if Ally is a ciswoman or a transwoman. So what's the problem in either case?

But I wouldnt treat them differently anyway you say! Great. You are doing life right then. But not everyone is like you. Some people would insist that Ally does need to be treated differently if she is trans. An that makes no sense to me.
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I don't care if a women who identifies as a woman uses the men's room (or vice versa) because I think gender separating bathrooms are stupid. But no I can't conceptualize a mental framework where I care about having separate bathrooms but don't care about some random exceptions to the rule.

I do not accept purely internal personal identification completely divorced from any and all actual objective differences as something I should be expected to factor into my worldview.

And the whole "Well not everybody is like you" is a copout since I'm still getting called a bigot. My choice is just to decide who calls me a bigot and for what reason.

Again I can't win, I can't lose, I can't quit the game. What do I do because the only option I have left is flipping over the table.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Listen if that's all it is, fine but... feet to the fire here.

1. I don't buy that we're having the biggest social discussion since gay rights and it's over nothing but pronouns.

2. That's still... iffy on me because we're back to the who'll "It's very important that you acknowledge this distinction without difference" thing and those... always make me uncomfortable.



That's a bit of a cop out. One that I will accept for a while since I'm not so try-hard who's one goal in life is to be as much of a jerkass as I can because I'm technically correct, but the argument sort of can't stop there forever.



That's an unfair way of summarizing where some people are at, especially since if we can't just magically jump to where these people are at in a moments notice we're bigots.
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1. Why not? Gay rights was the biggest thing since civil rights for black people over where people like to stick their dicks. And civil rights was the biggest thing since whatever was before that over melanin levels.

The issue is that people object to gay people, black people and trans people being treated in the way they want to be treated. Hence the debate. It may only be pronouns for you but its more than that for others.

2. It is for sure something difficult to get your head around when a man says they feel like a woman. I cannot conceptualize what that means. But then I cannot conceptualise a whole load of things people tell me are real. Apparently some people like having sex with men, can't fathom why. Apparently some people enjoy the taste of stinky cheeses, i dont believe them for a second, i think its a worldwide conspiracy to hoax me but i have to take them at their word for now.

As for the distinction without a difference. Also complicated. There are obviously differences between men ans women because i can predict with about 99% accuracy which is which. Is this solely biology? I dont think so. Biology + social cues? possibly.

But women also seem to argue (and this often comes from those who deny trans rights) that womanhood is more than this. But i get lost as to what this essential womanhood is.

I think a lot of women would be offended by the idea that the only difference between a man and a woman is physical and biological. Even of they might fall back on that logic to deny transwomen access to the identity.

Definitions are hard. So i quite likw the idea that if person X presents themselves as a woman and indicates they prefer to be treated as a woman then its probabaly for the best to treat them how you would any other woman. Which in your case may be no different to how you treat a man and thats cool.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Since at some point in his "Yelling at pigeons on the sidewalk" routine ponderingturtle made the "Homophobe" comparison, let's address this.

Here's the difference. With gay marriage were being told "There is no difference, so don't act like there is" between a man and a woman loving and coinhabitating with each other and two men or two women loving and coinhabitating with each other (because there isn't). So the people who went "No it's different because I say so" where in the wrong there.

But with transgenderism we're being told "There is no difference, but just act like there is because that's the nice thing to do." We're being told that men and women are functionally different again, something I thought we had gotten over.

Again I'm sorry but face value transgenderism puts... sexism back on the table as the default. We have to pretend all those ways men and women are different are true again.

And they aren't. Sorry.
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I fundamentally disagree with this interpretation. To me it is the opposite. Those who deny transwomen rights are arguing there is something innate about being a woman that a transwoman can't ever attain.

Transwomen don't have to be girly to be trans I think you have gone down a rabbit hole here.

You are focusing on treating transwomen different to men, but the request is not that, it is to treat transwomen the same as other women.
 
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