Trans Women are not Women

[JoeMorgue]

Here let me see if I can use a good example here.

Here in the United States of Assault Rifles and Bald Eagles there's a chain of popular big box stores called Target, which can basically be summed up as "The place you spend 5% more at so you don't have to put up with going to Walmart."

In the last few years Target has found itself at the center of controversy on two separate occasions over gender identity issues.

1. Target supports transgender people using the bathroom of their identified gender and has the policy in their stores match that philosophy.

2. Target has removed "boys" and "girls" labeling from their toy aisles and associated advertising to promote a more gender neutral practice.

Now let me be 10% clear. Neither of those are "bad" thing. Nor do I think Target is acting in anything but pure altruism, or at least as altruistic as a giant corporation can be acting.

But... did you notice something? Those two solutions are completely contradictory of each other. Hell in one case the solution sort of is to put the situation into the exact same place that the problem we're solving for the other one.

Society says boys play with certain toys and girls play with other toys. This is stupid. Removing some arbitrary "We expect you to play with this toy because you have a certain genitalia" is a good thing.

But the bathroom thing the solution is "Keep the standards, but just let people choose how it applies to them."

The answer to one is remove the standard, the answer to the other is keep the standard but just let everyone choose which side they are on which would also fix the first problem but doesn't because... reasons.

Again this is the "Standards/categorizations can't exist, but subverting them still does" thing we're supposed to pretend makes sense.

 

[Arcade22]

Isn't it a lovely day when TERF's and other types of bigots get together and just collectively stroke each-other's egos? Homophobes, racists, transphobes all sure do tend to come together in the end don't they?

 

[JoeMorgue]

“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”

― Eric Hoffer

Every movement goes through 3 stages.

1. I oppose the thing.
2. I oppose people who don't oppose the thing.
3. I oppose people who don't oppose the thing... enough.

Assuming "the thing" we're talking about is bad Step 1 is obviously needed.
Step 2 generally at least has a place in most cases. Step 3 is where the problems start.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Isn't it a lovely day when TERF's and other types of bigots get together and just collectively stroke each-other's egos? Homophobes, racists, transphobes all sure do tend to come together in the end don't they?

At certain point just screaming bigotry stops working.

I'm not the one putting gender roles back on the table.

 

[Ziggurat]

Isn't it a lovely day when TERF's and other types of bigots get together and just collectively stroke each-other's egos? Homophobes, racists, transphobes all sure do tend to come together in the end don't they?

You've been reduced to simply hurling invective. You think that's actually any better than stroking your ego?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Trans women. They're not trans women before the transition.

However, I'm quite happy to call trans women "she" and "her".



The two are not mutually exclusive. Someone without gender dysphoria could also transition. But it doesn't make you a woman. None of those positions are contradictory. It's not a package deal.

No this appears backwards. Transwomen are transwomen regardless of any transition. That's one of a number of possible approaches to dealing with being a transwoman.

Anyone transitioning someone who wasnt trans would surely be struck off?

So i am still not clear what you mean when you say you support transition... you mean you don't oppose it but refuse to treat those who do transition how they would want to be treated or to acknowledge that the transition means anything?

 

[JoeMorgue]

So i am still not clear what you mean when you say you support transition... you mean you don't oppose it but refuse to treat those who do transition how they would want to be treated or to acknowledge that the transition means anything?

I don't want to speak for Belz but speaking for myself I completely understand someone wanting to be the other gender and taking medical steps to transition to the other one.

It's the whole "I identify as a X, therefore I am literally now at this moment one" that's the issue.

(G)You tell me you want to lose 20 lbs, I'm with you. Tell me "I identify as someone who's 20 lbs lighter, rewire your literal perception of reality at this exact moment so that's literally true" and I'm not.

 

[Ziggurat]

Anyone transitioning someone who wasnt trans would surely be struck off?

Would they? It's not like there's a test to see if someone claiming to be trans is actually trans.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Here let me see if I can use a good example here.

Here in the United States of Assault Rifles and Bald Eagles there's a chain of popular big box stores called Target, which can basically be summed up as "The place you spend 5% more at so you don't have to put up with going to Walmart."

In the last few years Target has found itself at the center of controversy on two separate occasions over gender identity issues.

1. Target supports transgender people using the bathroom of their identified gender and has the policy in their stores match that philosophy.

2. Target has removed "boys" and "girls" labeling from their toy aisles and associated advertising to promote a more gender neutral practice.

Now let me be 10% clear. Neither of those are "bad" thing. Nor do I think Target is acting in anything but pure altruism, or at least as altruistic as a giant corporation can be acting.

But... did you notice something? Those two solutions are completely contradictory of each other. Hell in one case the solution sort of is to put the situation into the exact same place that the problem we're solving for the other one.

Society says boys play with certain toys and girls play with other toys. This is stupid. Removing some arbitrary "We expect you to play with this toy because you have a certain genitalia" is a good thing.

But the bathroom thing the solution is "Keep the standards, but just let people choose how it applies to them."

The answer to one is remove the standard, the answer to the other is keep the standard but just let everyone choose which side they are on which would also fix the first problem but doesn't because... reasons.

Again this is the "Standards/categorizations can't exist, but subverting them still does" thing we're supposed to pretend makes sense.

So the proper solution would be to have no segregation on bathrooms at all, right? and who is it that is going to oppose that?

You call sensible pragmatic solutions within the realms of what society will accept contradictory, i call it progress.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't want to speak for Belz but speaking for myself I completely understand someone wanting to be the other gender and taking medical steps to transition to the other one.

It's the whole "I identify as a X, therefore I am literally now at this moment one" that's the issue.

(G)You tell me you want to lose 20 lbs, I'm with you. Tell me "I identify as someone who's 20 lbs lighter, rewire your literal perception of reality at this exact moment so that's literally true" and I'm not.

Which is all great but misses the point that you can't on one hand say you support people transitioning to the other gender while simultaneously insisting that they haven't really and never could.

it is not transitioning that makes someone trans, it being trans that makes someone want to transition.

 

[Francesca R]

Isn't it a lovely day [ . . . ]

#Yawn . . . .

As most of us live in democracies their success at the ballot box just shows how utterly unconvinced women are, let alone everyone else.

What does "the ballot box in most democracies" show women being "utterly unconvinced" about, exactly?

But pretty much every measure of the level of public support seems to suggest the complete opposite?

Evidence for this claim please I asked you to back up a similar assertion before and you have not done so.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes. You are. You do not understand the rationale (legally protected) for single sex services / places in which biological males are excluded from the female version.

Yep and clearly you support the ruling that revived the thread banning the male Caster Semenya, from sports. Caster Semenya and people like that should also be banned from all other single sex services. So what are the medical tests to access these services?

 

[Francesca R]

I can only argue with the actual points being made [ . . . ]

You've admitted you do not understand what the issue really is, yet you keep right on truckin' and remain somehow uniquely still qualified to diagnose the source of dispute and also recommend policy action yourself. It would be funny if it was not so tragic. It is a bit funny.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So the proper solution would be to have no segregation on bathrooms at all, right?

But that will cause less of these freaks to kill themselves in highschool and really no one wants to reduce such suicides, we are better off with out them like we are when all LGBT youth kill themselves. After all why only encourage trans kids to kill themselves?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Would they? It's not like there's a test to see if someone claiming to be trans is actually trans.

Are you serious? There is a whole host of services and treatments which physicians provide to ensure the treatments are appropriate. You dont just rock up at thre hospital say i am a woman three times and a surgeon lops your bits off.

This kind of nonsense isn't helpful or useful if you want a proper discussion in the topic.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You've admitted you do not understand what the issue really is, yet you keep right on truckin' and remain somehow uniquely still qualified to diagnose the source of dispute and also recommend policy action yourself. It would be funny if it was not so tragic. It is a bit funny.

No i admitted to being confused when a person says the issue is X and then says the issue isn't X.

I am not in the least bit confused about for example the value of your contribution. Or your ability to participate usefully in this discussion. Its OK that its beyond you but stop embarassing yourself further

 

[Francesca R]

Yep and clearly you support the ruling that revived the thread banning the male Caster Semenya, from sports. Caster Semenya and people like that should also be banned from all other single sex services. So what are the medical tests to access these services?

I have not made a comment on Caster Semenya and sports. I suspect I would conclude she should be excluded

I do not support sex self-ID being the basis to access single sex places and services. In my opinion the social cost is much greater than the social benefit. Of course these accrue to different folks which is difficult. But that's what usually happens,

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Every movement goes through 3 stages.

1. I oppose the thing.
2. I oppose people who don't oppose the thing.
3. I oppose people who don't oppose the thing... enough.

Assuming "the thing" we're talking about is bad Step 1 is obviously needed.
Step 2 generally at least has a place in most cases. Step 3 is where the problems start.

This smacks of 'they have gone too far, because i don't agree with them now'

 

[JoeMorgue]

So the proper solution would be to have no segregation on bathrooms at all, right? and who is it that is going to oppose that?

Sorta. It's more complicated then that. Let me explain, since you seem to be the only one from your POV who's interested in a dialogue more nuanced then screaming "BIGOT" at people.

I'm not demanding some sort of pure ideological purity across the board, Bob has pretty well immunized me against ever considering that a good thing.

But we can't take old, outmoded standards (which I think we're all on the same page as considering traditional gender roles being) and replace them with standards that simply don't work and "Just whatever the disenfranchised group in questions wants right now" is a standard that doesn't work.

And looking at the hows and whys for differing applications of standards is not a bad or evil thing.

Why is... telling a boy he has to play with actions figures and girl she has to play with dolls bad? Because it puts roles and expectations on them that don't serve a purpose.

Now why doesn't just going "It doesn't matter, you can still choose to play with whatever you want, I mean it's not like there is a law or something" not work in this case? Because we understand that expectations don't have to absolute and written in stone to have an effect. The standards has to be gone, not just there but only halfway enforced, for us to meet our goals.

Now let's look at the other scenario, bathrooms. Why do we separate bathrooms by gender? And that's not rhetorical. Why?

If you say it's because of tradition and because of personal comfort, that brings up.... so many problems I can't even address them all.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I have not made a comment on Caster Semenya and sports. I suspect I would conclude she should be excluded

Do it isn't about genitals or anything it is merely how someone looks. Being a tall black woman keep her out of the space.(the decision was based solely on the level of testosterone in her blood not on any intersex condition) So there is a really high bar to medically prove that you are female before you are allowed to pee.

I do not support sex self-ID being the basis to access single sex places and services. In my opinion the social cost is much greater than the social benefit. Of course these accrue to different folks which is difficult. But that's what usually happens,

Yea first it was the gays saying that they were no risk around our kids and should be allowed into spaces with kids and now it is the trans. Totally against all decency and morality. What will be next? If only we held the line against the gays we wouldn't even be thinking about this now.