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Trans Women are not Women

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I actually agree as well, my comments at the start was before I'd learned her actual biology had been disclosed. Still think the ruling is perverse, they should have banned her rather than saying she can compete if she dopes herself.


But how could they do that, fairly and legally?

Before 2007 that's exactly what would have happened, and it did happen to a number of teenage girl stars who turned out not to be girls after all. Usually some story was concocted about an injury and they vanished from the scene. SOP.

But in 2007 (I think) the athletics authorities capitulated to the trans lobby and changed the rules so that males were allowed to compete in women's events if they identified as female and "doped themselves". Semenya is a male who identifies as female so what possible grounds could there be for excluding her?

The current brouhaha was caused by her applying to be exempted from the requirement to dope on the grounds that she's actually female. If she had been female then this would have succeeded under the rules as bona fide females are allowed to compete as they are. But she isn't female and I don't know how she thought she would win that one. There's nothing in the rules that overrides the requirement for people who didn't realise they were male until they were tested. Maybe she thought the authorities would let it slide for fear of being accused of racism or discrimination.

But they simply applied the rules,and said you are male my dear so this is the position. I don't see how they could ban her while any other male who identifies as a woman is allowed to compete.

Of course I don't think any male should be competing in women's events, it's an absolute outrage that this is happening at all, but while it is allowed I don't see how they could justify discriminating against Caster Semenya by banning only her.
 
The spectacle of a bunch of men self-righteously agreeing that women have no right to protected spaces free of any male presence, and that any objection is equivalent to colour prejudice, is pretty nauseating.

It could be worse, the other guy compared it to the holocaust.
 
No, it wasn't. I asked you to read it again. Did you?

Yes, did you? The poster explicitly stated that one groups rights should end according to the comfort level of others with their 'choices'. Now ignoring that being trans isn't a choice any way then that is the argument I am countering.

In fact the poster doubled down on it in their next response. So for you to argue that it ISN'T the argument I am responding to is ridiculous.

It may not be YOUR argument but it is the one I am answering
 
No it isn't. Not in the case of services and spaces provided for a single sex. The onus is on someone who does not fit the criterion (is not that sex) to remove themself. Or be removed.

You have it backwards.

If that was the case there would hardly be any argument since in real life most of the relevant services and facilities aren't even implied to be restricted towards "biological females" or "biological males" only. Signs usually say "women's section" and not "female section", for example. I've never been screened for whether I'm biological male or female when I've used gender segregated bathrooms either, maybe that's a Canadian thing.

Sounds like any man can go into any women's changing room and the women need a better objection than its making them uncomfortable because that's no better than racism and they just need to get over thinking that way.

If that was the case it wouldn't really be a women's changing room at all now would it?
 
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I was going to take you at your word that you wanted legitimate debate on the subject, but with this post, you have kind of made it obvious that you do not. You are saying that any argument based on discomfort in sharing space is not legitimate. Well, you have correctly deduced that discomfort is indeed the issue that so many people, especially women, have when it comes to sharing space while undressed. However, you have simply declared that their discomfort is illegitimate. Unless you are at least willing to allow that declaration to be questioned and for that to be part of the debate, then there is no room for debate.

And here you provide further evidence that you are not interested in a legitimate debate. Most people, and until recently our society's laws, declared it inappropriate for people to take off their clothes in front of the opposite sex, or to venture into a space where the opposite sex may be undressed.

Those laws have changed recently. Instead of the "opposite sex", our new laws are based on "opposite gender", and "gender" which used to be synonymous with sex, has been redefined as......something.....I'm not sure what, because every definition I have seen is a circular, and therefore meaningless, definition.

So, you are declaring that inappropriate behavior remains illegal, and since what is going on now, with men* sharing locker rooms with women and girls by declaring themselves to be women, is legal, must, by your definition, be appropriate.

It's not an honest debating position. The honest position would be to debate whether or not the behavior is appropriate, and whether it ought to be legal. My answer to both of those questions is "no". If you were inclined to debate, we could do so, but you seem more inclined toward pronouncement than debate.

*Disputed definition. I mean "post-pubescent biological males". I'm willing to be flexible on that if surgical alteration has taken place.

Yes, any argument solely based on discomfort is illegitimate because trust me there are people who dont want to share spaces with black folks, Muslims and gays too and are uncomfortable when they have to. Damn we had men only golf clubs to give a trivial example because the men there weren't comfortable sharing their toys with women, and women were, rightly, up in arms.

Now you can argue this is different and there are good reasons for it.... but you have to actually make that argument not just demand everyone agree with you from the get go or they aren't really interested in a debate.

You will also note that I have not said the discomfort is illegitimate. People feel how they feel. Rather the proposed response to the discomfort. Insisting that other peoples rights are limited because you dont like their 'choice' to be trans, or gay, or whatever.

Nor have I made this mixed up argument that legal things are appropriate and inappropriate things are illegal. All I have said is that there are standards of behaviour expected of people which continue to apply regardless of sex, gender or anything else and there is no get out jail free card for being trans. Nor is there anything wrong with challenging or reporting inappropriate behavior from someone who is trans.

The problem is that if we are being honest, as you appear to be, these arguments are just a smokescreen. Because the issue is closer to where we started. People are objecting to the mere presence of trans people because they think they should be able to dictate to others based on their comfort levels.
 
Arguing about what is right or fair or appropriate for this group or that group when we don't all agree on how the groups are being divided seems like putting the cart before the horse.

Anyone can give whatever right to whatever group they want if they are the ones defining the group. That gets us nowhere.
 
Yes, did you? The poster explicitly stated that one groups rights should end according to the comfort level of others with their 'choices'.

Bollocks. Being female and having a shower in the company of other females doesn't fall into the category of 'choice'. There are signs on the doors.

The category of '18-stone hairy-arsed male rugby player identifying as female and wanting to shower with the women' is what we're discussing (putting it into an extreme but perfectly valid form).

By the way - how did you get on by expressing your 'choice' to walk down the high street stark naked? Been to the magistrates court yet?
 
Sounds like any man can go into any women's changing room and the women need a better objection than its making them uncomfortable because that's no better than racism and they just need to get over thinking that way.

That might be where we end up, especially if the transphobes can't get with the program, but it is a different argument. would it be terrible?

Private spaces should be available for people who want privacy and people should behave appropriately in communal areas regardless of gender.
 
Bollocks. Being female and having a shower in the company of other females doesn't fall into the category of 'choice'. There are signs on the doors.

The category of '18-stone hairy-arsed male rugby player identifying as female and wanting to shower with the women' is what we're discussing (putting it into an extreme but perfectly valid form).

By the way - how did you get on by expressing your 'choice' to walk down the high street stark naked? Been to the magistrates court yet?

The word choice wasn't mine it was used by the poster i replied to. Other than that I am honestly not sure what your point is here.

You think weight, sport choice or hirsuteness is relevant to whether someone is trans? or even female? If not why make that example?
 
You know what's truly nauseating? It's that a tiny minority of extremist transphobic feminists take it upon themselves to become arbitrators of what "real women" are all about and shriek about the injustice being done upon womanhood by the "transsexual lobby", even-though women can decided for themselves.

As most of us live in democracies their success at the ballot box just shows how utterly unconvinced women are, let alone everyone else.
 
The word choice wasn't mine it was used by the poster i replied to. Other than that I am honestly not sure what your point is here.

You think weight, sport choice or hirsuteness is relevant to whether someone is trans? or even female? If not why make that example?

Presumably fat ugly old women don't count as human at all.
 
And yet another who cant actually address the question. The argument made is a nonsense. the idea that we base one groups rights on the comfort level of another group is patently false.
I have no confidence that anyone who wants to limit trans rights has ANY interest in a debate either. Because their idea of a debate is 'agree that trans people are a threat or you are a mysogynist'

I thought for example the trans toilet issue is trans women want to use female toilets for their "comfort" level

Or did I get the wrong end of the stick?
 
You can't just say, I feel I'm black so I am black and I should be eligible for affirmative action black scholarships and so on. You can't just say I feel I'm seventy years old so pay me my pension now - or I feel I'm ten years old I only need to pay half fare.

You can't just say I feel I'm only 70 kg so I should be able to fight in that weight category. You can't just say I feel that I'm six feet six, I demand my rightful place on the basketball team. You can't just say I feel like a brain surgeon, let me operate on you.

Why is anyone who demonstrably has an SRY gene and significant androgen sensitivity taken seriously when he says feels like a woman? What makes that any different?
 
I thought for example the trans toilet issue is trans women want to use female toilets for their "comfort" level

Or did I get the wrong end of the stick?


Exactly so. Why do trans identifying men want to use the ladies room when there is a perfectly good gents lavatory specially equipped for people with penises, which they have? They just do. Offer that group a toilet space of their own so they don't have to suffer the discomfort of using the gents' where they belong and this will be angrily rejected. The message is that only the right to use the female provision will validate their lady feelz.

Please explain to me why the comfort of this group should take precedence over the comfort of the group for which the ladies room was designed and constructed, the group which (in Britain) is still entitled to it by law, and without even any discussion? The safeguarding implications alone are substantial, but first, why are we supposed to prioritise the comfort of the invading minority over that of the existing users who are a large majority?

We still have laws against indecent exposure. A man exposing himself to unwilling females is generally charged with an offence. Why is it any different just because the man says I identify as female? Did the indecent exposure laws suddenly get repealed and nobody told us?
 
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Yes, any argument solely based on discomfort is illegitimate because trust me there are people who dont want to share spaces with black folks, Muslims and gays too and are uncomfortable when they have to. Damn we had men only golf clubs to give a trivial example because the men there weren't comfortable sharing their toys with women, and women were, rightly, up in arms.


Back in high school philosophy class (yeah, it was a thing for me) the teacher taught me about valid arguments and about sound arguments, but never about "legitimate" arguments. I also took Philosophy 101 in college, and the professor affirmed my high school teacher's definitions, and once again left off the description of "legitimate".

Meanwhile, your argument above has the form:

Some arguments that involve comfort levels are not legitimate.
The arguments against allowing biological males into women's only spaces involve comfort levels.
Therefore, the arguments against allowing biological males into women's only spaces are not legitimate.


The Philosophy 101 professor covered that form of argument on day 1, under the general heading of common forms of invalid arguments. Note that it is an invalid argument regardless of whatever the definition of legitimate is.


It seems to me that your declaration of a lot of arguments as illegitimate, whatever that means, is a declaration that you aren't really interested in actual debate. You have already declared the arguments illegitimate, and while you haven't provided a definition of illegitimate, it sounds like it is probably bad.

Now you can argue this is different and there are good reasons for it.... but you have to actually make that argument not just demand everyone agree with you from the get go or they aren't really interested in a debate.


Ok. I will. Let's see if you are actually interested in debate.


Women in our society do not generally take their clothes off in front of men. (The obvious exceptions apply. I assume I don't have to describe them.) They feel discomfort when doing so. Whether that discomfort is a result of societal conditioning or is an instinctive aspect of modern humans is subject to debate, but it is real. From the perspective of the women in the locker room, there is absolutely no difference between a transwoman and a man. They are naked males in the women's only space.


In some cases, people try to equate the discomfort felt in the presence of transwomen to the discomfort than an older generation might have felt to sharing a locker room with black women. This comparison fails for several reasons. First, the discomfort is not caused by being in the presence of a transgender person. It is caused by being in the presence of a male. To say that the people are practicing discrimination against transgenders is to misidentify the discriminant. They are discriminating against men, not against transgenders.

Second, society as a whole has examined the discrimination that affected black people in ages past, and came to the conclusion that there is no difference between black people and white people that ought to justify creating a separate space for the two sorts of people. It was understood that generations of teaching had said that it was inappropriate for blacks and whites to undress together, but that teaching was examined and found to be unsound. The premise that blacks and whites shouldn't share such a space was considered incorrect. Their dark skin really didn't matter, and there was no other discernible difference. In the case of males and females being naked together, we did not reach the same conclusion. The fact that males can impregnate females, or engage in penetrative sexual intercourse with them, was decided to be a big deal. All of the feelings, emotions, and general attitudes related to sexuality were deemed to be significant. Therefore, we continue to segregate males and females. We do so because people are uncomfortable being naked around the opposite sex. Perhaps in some future society it will not be so. I cannot foretell the future, but for now, we have decided it is real.


So, the only question left is whether a person who declares themselves to be a sex (or gender, or whatever) that is different from the one that their biology dictates should be treated in accordance with their self declaration, or in accordance with their objectively measured biological characteristics.


I can continue this later, but I'm sure you can see where this is going, and I must get back to a project. The important part is to note that we do indeed separate men and women. The real question is what criteria we ought to use in order to make that separation. Should it be self-declaration, or biological characteristics. I am prepared to argue, if it is necessary to do so, that biology should be paramount in making that decision.
 
This. Women are not objecting to the presence of men who wish they were women ogling them in changing rooms and exposing themselves to them because they're trans. They're objecting to this because they're male.

I really don't care if the man staring at me in the spa ladies changing room or getting undressed in the women's dormitory is there because he has something wrong in his head that causes him to wish he was a woman, or because he's a common or garden peeping tom who's simply taking advantage of the situation to get his rocks off. His motivation is unimportant to me. I don't want him out of there because he's trans, or because he isn't trans. I want him out of there because he's male.

Talking of peeping toms, I suppose Godiva should just have trotted down the main street as a matter of course and nobody should have turned a hair because why should she have any right to object to any man seeing her naked in the first place?

This is a very longstanding and deep-seated taboo that's being cast aside here, with essentially no debate, and in particular with one side of the debate, the one which wants to defend the status quo, being vilified and scolded and told their point of view isn't even going to get a hearing.
 
This. Women are not objecting to the presence of men who wish they were women ogling them in changing rooms and exposing themselves to them because they're trans. They're objecting to this because they're male.



I really don't care if the man staring at me in the spa ladies changing room or getting undressed in the women's dormitory is there because he has something wrong in his head that causes him to wish he was a woman, or because he's a common or garden peeping tom who's simply taking advantage of the situation to get his rocks off. His motivation is unimportant to me. I don't want him out of there because he's trans, or because he isn't trans. I want him out of there because he's male.



Talking of peeping toms, I suppose Godiva should just have trotted down the main street as a matter of course and nobody should have turned a hair because why should she have any right to object to any man seeing her naked in the first place?



This is a very longstanding and deep-seated taboo that's being cast aside here, with essentially no debate, and in particular with one side of the debate, the one which wants to defend the status quo, being vilified and scolded and told their point of view isn't even going to get a hearing.
Complete threadjack so I apologise

But the Lady Godiva riding naked thing has zero proof in historical documentation.

Just a legend that sounds nice

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Yes, did you? The poster explicitly stated that one groups rights should end according to the comfort level of others with their 'choices'.

Well, I tried, but I'm going to need to hold your hand, here.

What's been discussed mainly is the risk of assault by people who claim to be trans but aren't, which isn't helped by the accusations of bigotry by those who raise the issue. You may disagree with the argument, sure, but don't mischaracterise it.
 
You know what's truly nauseating? It's that a tiny minority of extremist transphobic feminists take it upon themselves to become arbitrators of what "real women" are all about and shriek about the injustice being done upon womanhood by the "transsexual lobby", even-though women can decided for themselves.

As most of us live in democracies their success at the ballot box just shows how utterly unconvinced women are, let alone everyone else.

Well, that's the standard response to those who disagree with you on this issue: call them bigots and extremists.

I'm sure that'll carry the discussion forward any minute now.

Can you even fathom the possibility that their concerns are genuine and that they are, in fact, not transphobic extremists?
 
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