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Trans Women are not Women

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Rolfe said:
The spectacle of a bunch of men self-righteously agreeing that women have no right to protected spaces free of any male presence, and that any objection is equivalent to colour prejudice, is pretty nauseating.
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Significant parts of the interwebz are dominated by frustrated males (living in their parents' garage etc) and in that world women are often a hated group, and do things like instigate rape acts against themselves as well as make copious false allegations of it, they also sexually abuse men more than happens in reverse.

In that world denying women sex-segregated space is merely the thin end of the wedge.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Now there may welĺ be legitimate arguments on the topic but not being comfortable sharing a space with people of a certain designation isn't one of them.
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Sounds like any man can go into any women's changing room and the women need a better objection than its making them uncomfortable because that's no better than racism and they just need to get over thinking that way.
 
Rolfe said:
Absence of a functioning SRY gene, female. Presence of an SRY gene but absence of a functional androgen response, female. Both functional SRY gene and functional androgen response, male.

That's the definition apparently being used by the CAS and it seems absolutely correct to me. Caster Semenya is in the third category, and she knew that. The appeal was a bit of a Hail Mary pass, probably prompted by the SA athletics authorities not wanting to have their star runner slowed down by testosterone blockers.

I believe there is a very small group of men that are misclassified by that, those with a DSD known as XX SRY-negative males. I believe there is some provision to screen them out as well but I'm not quite sure what the exact criterion is. It's a very small number of people, only about 20% of XX males which are themselves only small in number. (The other 80% have an SRY gene translocated on to an X chromosome and so are correctly classified by the main criteria.)
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That seems appropriate to me. Like you, when I thought she was a woman with a genetic abnormality that meant she produced excess testosterone, I thought she should compete as a woman, but not now.
 
jimbob said:
That seems appropriate to me. Like you, when I thought she was a woman with a genetic abnormality that meant she produced excess testosterone, I thought she should compete as a woman, but not now.
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I actually agree as well, my comments at the start was before I'd learned her actual biology had been disclosed. Still think the ruling is perverse, they should have banned her rather than saying she can compete if she dopes herself.
 
Darat said:
I actually agree as well, my comments at the start was before I'd learned her actual biology had been disclosed. Still think the ruling is perverse, they should have banned her rather than saying she can compete if she dopes herself.
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That's about where I'm at as well.
 
I only see two obvious solutions:

1) Create a new category which is only for Trans People to compete

2) Get rid of all categories and just mix everything together: Trans women, trans men, children, people with disabilities, etc.... And of course, you'll have lots of unfair competitions between people where one of the two has an obvious advantage.... but at least you won't be able to cry foul about any injustice regarding inclusivity
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
I only see two obvious solutions:

1) Create a new category which is only for Trans People to compete

2) Get rid of all categories and just mix everything together: Trans women, trans men, children, people with disabilities, etc.... And of course, you'll have lots of unfair competitions between people where one of the two has an obvious advantage.... but at least you won't be able to cry foul about any injustice regarding inclusivity
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Or maybe have the following definition:

Absence of a functioning SRY gene, female. Presence of an SRY gene but absence of a functional androgen response, female. Both functional SRY gene and functional androgen response, male.
 
We are going to need three more ESPN channels sooner or later. Too many sports now with football, baseball, basketball and then year round sports like soccer. Motorsports have a few dozen themselves and now the " open ' class sports would open up at least a dozen more leagues and governing bodies outside of Olympic type sports.

Unemployment would be reduced, Pete Rose could play again, Tyson could be champ again and his opponent could be some female like person with a neck the size of my waist. It's all good.

And it could be a little scary.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Causing a disturbance to others is not the same as not being comfortable sharing a space with them. And none of these single out particular groups.

Now there may welĺ be legitimate arguments on the topic but not being comfortable sharing a space with people of a certain designation isn't one of them.
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AC/DC at max volume at 2 a.m. might 'cause a disturbance', but walking naked down the high street doesn't 'cause a disturbance' any more than a naked man appearing in the women's showers at the gym does, which is precisely why I included that example, anticipating your wriggle.
 
Darat said:
I actually agree as well, my comments at the start was before I'd learned her actual biology had been disclosed. Still think the ruling is perverse, they should have banned her rather than saying she can compete if she dopes herself.
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I suspect that, in a way, they're trying to be kind. "It isn't you, it's your abnormal hormone levels". An outright banning would be more like "You're abnormal".
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
I only see two obvious solutions:

1) Create a new category which is only for Trans People to compete

2) Get rid of all categories and just mix everything together: Trans women, trans men, children, people with disabilities, etc.... And of course, you'll have lots of unfair competitions between people where one of the two has an obvious advantage.... but at least you won't be able to cry foul about any injustice regarding inclusivity
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Before we define a solution, we have to be sure we know what problem we are trying to solve.

The solution might be very different for high school athletes, versus amateur/recreational athletic leagues, versus pure professional sports, versus kindaprofessional sports like college football or the Olympics.


One thing that we also have to recognize is that no matter what we do, not everyone will be happy about it. There's no real "solution" in that sense. There will still be a problem when all is said and done.

In my humble opinion, a really awful solution is calling Terry Miller a girl and praising her for her courage in competing against a bunch of people who, unlike Terry, cannot sire children.
 
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