Trans Women are not Women

[The Atheist]

Why are you doubling-down with an insistence on using the colloquial meaning of 'vagina' in this way when the thread is discussing the accurate physiological meaning?

The thread's moved on, but as this isn't a medical institution - and I'm pretty sure nobody here is a doctor - I don't see the problem.

The point is, Semenya's father obviously felt she had the physical appearance of a girl, despite the fact that she's a male. Essentially a freak of nature, but as the thread's more back on trans women, we'll stick to that subject.

 

[The Atheist]

...Blanchard's hypothesis.)

Having worked with quite a few trans women, I am definitely open to a lot more evidence on both sides of the subject.

I'm highly disturbed by the pre-pubertal hormones we discussed a few pages back and I think there's a lot of merit in what you're saying - trans is being driven by societal desire rather than scientific analysis.

 

[Baylor]

And if people don't like sharing spaces with gay men or black people they shouldn't have to either, right?

Well, at least it's not a holocaust analogy.

 

[Darat]

In certain ways, amateur porn must represent some form of reality because it's people taking pictures of what they do.

It's not just amateur porn, commercial porn reflects that will find an audience and make a profit so it reflects the actual sexual fantasies that turn people on, if it didn't it wouldn't be made. The actual sex acts and scenarios in pornography are usually fantasy, but we certainly can use pornography to see the reality of what people are actually turned on by.

 

[Rolfe]

Men can just barge in to women's locker rooms and sexually assault people with complete impunity only because they declare that they identify as a woman?

Nice! That's how it works in Sweden too.

You'll note I didn't say that. I said it was getting close to your exaggerated scenario. Actually touch someone and the bets are off. But barging into the women's changing room, watching the women and girls undress, loitering so they can't just wait till you've gone, stripping off on front of them and exposing your male genitalia, even getting an erection they have to look at, all that will be waved aside because yours is a woman's body too, and women who think it isn't are ignorant and bigoted.

For goodness sake, check some of the links I posted back up the thread about Jonathan Yaviv. That's his modus operandi and it even includes a selfie he took in a changing room with a bunch of girls in the background. He fantasises about going there and seeing their "tits and vaginas hanging out" (that last would be a serious medical concern!) and whether you can see the string of a tampon and whether a girl might ask him for a tampon and help to insert it, and whether he could ask a ten-year-old for a tampon "just to bond".

It's considered a hate crime to challenge any man in a woman's changing room. Nobody asks for an official gender recognition certificate for fear of being accused of this, so any man who pleases can go in, expose himself, watch the women undress, knock yourself out so long as you don't actually touch.

Is that OK with you? Just so long as they don't actually touch?

 

[Rolfe]

The thread's moved on, but as this isn't a medical institution - and I'm pretty sure nobody here is a doctor - I don't see the problem.

The point is, Semenya's father obviously felt she had the physical appearance of a girl, despite the fact that she's a male. Essentially a freak of nature, but as the thread's more back on trans women, we'll stick to that subject.

It was basically semantics. People were claiming that Semenya has a vagina and I was pointing out that we don't know whether she has or not because you can't see the actual vagina when changing a baby and it's very likely that she doesn't. The fact that her external genitalia (vulva) appeared feminine to her family when she was an infant doesn't prove anything because ambiguous genitalia generally look female to the lay person.

 

[Rolfe]

He didn't say that every MtoF transperson was autogynephilic, but he said a lot of late transitioning, heterosexual, men who wanted to transition definitely were. He had numbers and experiments to back up his claims.

And then, reading his critics, I saw an awful lot of straw men and an awful lot of use of the word "discredited", but rarely evidence to back it. In some cases there was mockery. In other cases there was misrepresentation (straw men). Perhaps Blanchard exaggerates the extent of the presence of AGP in the population. I really don't know. What I mean is I don't even really know how prevalent Blanchard says AGP is among male to female transitioners, because the critics that I have read seem to really exaggerate what he said, to the point that I don't really trust anything I read.

Blanchard does say that he has almost never come across a trans person who didn't fit into one of the three types described in that article. The penny-number exceptions are people fitting into a couple of other rare defined categories such as dissociative personality disorder. That's his observation.

But to get back to the original point, this is mainly important in the light of the persistent claims that trans people have "the wrong body for their brain". A woman's brain in a man's body. That is complete bollocks. Not only can a brain not possibly be the opposite sex from the body it's in (same chromosomes, same hormonal environment), research shows that trans-identifying males have the same pattern of violent offending as other men, absolutely nothing like the female pattern. It's also self-evident when interacting with these guys and reading about their behaviour. The entitled talking-over women. The bullying. The demands to be centred in every discussion.

Not that all men are like that, or even all trans-identifying men. But the vocal trans activists who so vociferously insist on their femininity are underlining their essential masculinity with every word they utter.

 

[Information Analyst]

I don't think I'm alone in starting to wonder if a large percentage of those claiming to be transgendered women are really just normal men who want to force women to accept them into their spaces.

Well, on the basis of the real live transwomen I know, I'd say that that idea is bollocks.

 

[Rolfe]

I agree with you about that.

 

[Information Analyst]

Being transgender is now often more acceptable than being gay or lesbian.

Prove it.

 

[JihadJane]

I don't think I'm alone in starting to wonder if a large percentage of those claiming to be transgendered women are really just normal men who want to force women to accept them into their spaces.

You're not alone in wondering this. I think the percentage is small, however, yet very dangerous and a very good reason to refuse demands for Self ID. Half of transgendered people in prison are in there for sexual offences.

More commonly, male-identified men are forcing their way into women's spaces because they need to have their delusions validated:

"Me and my lady brain are in the ladies room therefore I am a lady."

Without validation ("supply"), a narcissist can feel like their very existence is threatened

It's not just amateur porn, commercial porn reflects that will find an audience and make a profit so it reflects the actual sexual fantasies that turn people on, if it didn't it wouldn't be made. The actual sex acts and scenarios in pornography are usually fantasy, but we certainly can use pornography to see the reality of what people are actually turned on by.

If that is true then it seems that what really turns most men on is dominating and raping women.

The sex acts in pornography are real.

 

[Belz...]

As I said, I'm under no delusion that I'm going to change minds here.

Well, that's going to be productive!

With so many posters "not trying to convince you" and "not expecting to change minds" one wonders why we get any traffic at all.

Blanchard's work is discredited in that video

Generally speaking, videos don't do a very good job of that.

Like how some people think they might be gay and then find out they are not does not mean sexual orientation is a choice any more than some people thinking they are trans gender and then finding out they are not does not mean gender identity doesn't exist.

The two have nothing to do with one another, though. Homosexuality is not defined as how you identify, so the paradox doesn't exist. How about you address what I actually said rather than change the subject?

The entire argument is that gender is whatever you feel you are. You therefore cannot be mistaken about it. At best you can have a variable gender.

Unless, of course, the argument that gender is whatever you feel you are is wrong.

 

[Belz...]

Men can just barge in to women's locker rooms and sexually assault people with complete impunity only because they declare that they identify as a woman?

Nice! That's how it works in Sweden too.

Are you taking the piss, or genuinely not understanding her argument?

Her point is that while assault is illegal already, the laws and social pressures in place to give free reign to transgender people makes it more likely that cis-males will take advantage of the situation. It's like, stealing is illegal but leaving your precious stuff on the front lawn is a stupid idea.

 

[Belz...]

And if people don't like sharing spaces with gay men or black people they shouldn't have to either, right?

And that post, right there, is why we can't discuss this issue in any way. Instead of addressing an argument directly, you instead twist it into a thinly-veiled accusation of bigotry.

That doesn't increase my confidence that you're interested in a debate over this topic.

... and there's the panic. Suicide rates. It's like a magic talisman.

But is it true? If it is, it should be a concern.

 

[Francesca R]

And if people don't like sharing spaces with gay men or black people they shouldn't have to either, right?

And that post, right there, is why we can't discuss this issue in any way. Instead of addressing an argument directly, you instead twist it into a thinly-veiled accusation of bigotry.

Well, twist it in a way so obviously flawed I think anyone with a brain cell can dismiss this "rejoinder" in two shakes of a lamb's tail

 

[Myriad]

...patent vagina...

Whoever owns that patent has a heck of a legal case in store. There's been a lot of infringement going on.

 

[Ziggurat]

But is it true? If it is, it should be a concern.

It’s of concern, but the response is along the lines of we must do something, this is something, so we must do this. And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, people are teaching children to threaten suicide in order to get transition treatment. As soon as suicide is put on the table, the brakes come off.

 

[Arcade22]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said it was getting close to your exaggerated scenario.

And my scenario was such an obvious extreme exaggeration that there's no way anything even remotely close to that is considered acceptable behavior anywhere.

But barging into the women's changing room, watching the women and girls undress, loitering so they can't just wait till you've gone, stripping off on front of them and exposing your male genitalia, even getting an erection they have to look at, all that will be waved aside because yours is a woman's body too, and women who think it isn't are ignorant and bigoted.

I'll try this at the public bathhouse. It's a terrible idea but i think it must be done, for the sake of science. If i get charged with a crime or even just removed from the premises i'll hold you responsible.

For goodness sake, check some of the links I posted back up the thread about Jonathan Yaviv. That's his modus operandi and it even includes a selfie he took in a changing room with a bunch of girls in the background. He fantasises about going there and seeing their "tits and vaginas hanging out" (that last would be a serious medical concern!) and whether you can see the string of a tampon and whether a girl might ask him for a tampon and help to insert it, and whether he could ask a ten-year-old for a tampon "just to bond".

They took a selfie in a changing room with other people there, completely legally? Did they even publish it online legally?

It's considered a hate crime to challenge any man in a woman's changing room. Nobody asks for an official gender recognition certificate for fear of being accused of this, so any man who pleases can go in, expose himself, watch the women undress, knock yourself out so long as you don't actually touch.

Being a woman in Canada is to know true suffering.

Is that OK with you? Just so long as they don't actually touch?

No not really, but i would think Canadian women would be up in arms about all countless men (including crypto-males) in their locker rooms, getting erections, taking intimate photographs of children and so forth. Especially since this happens all the time all over the country. Apparently they are fine with it.

I should note here that as a bisexual male i can already see plenty of other naked males in changing/shower rooms at public swimming pools, gyms and so forth. They can't do anything about it, although i guess if one were to pop a boner or start creepily ogle people you're liable to be removed from the premises. Being a heterosexual male while surrounded by potential homo/bisexual males must be utterly mortifying. This is truly a hellish existence.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

This isn't about "sharing spaces" is it? It's about sharing INTIMATE spaces. It's about being forced to share showers and locker rooms and sleeping quarters.

Should someone be forced to share sleeping quarters with ANYONE if they don't want to? Shouldn't the right to privacy and comfort extend to BOTH parties?

How about if the gay person is male, but a woman has requested a female nurse? Does being gay make him "less" male? Isn't that up to HER to decide?

Really clever, BTW, to bring the race card to a discussion about gender identity. It's just soooo related.

Erm you didnt answer the question.

And yes its related, because we generally don't limit the rights of one group based on the comfort level of another.

If a man is uncomfortable sharing a locker room with gay men then its his problem and not that of the gay men right?

If a patient is uncomfortable being treated by a black doctor then whose problem is that?

Nobody should be FORCED to do anything of course but you have the right not to use spaces you dont feel comfortable in.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And that post, right there, is why we can't discuss this issue in any way. Instead of addressing an argument directly, you instead twist it into a thinly-veiled accusation of bigotry.

That doesn't increase my confidence that you're interested in a debate over this topic.

And yet another who cant actually address the question. The argument made is a nonsense. the idea that we base one groups rights on the comfort level of another group is patently false.

I have no confidence that anyone who wants to limit trans rights has ANY interest in a debate either. Because their idea of a debate is 'agree that trans people are a threat or you are a mysogynist'