Trans Women are not Women

[Rolfe]

Thanks, but TL;DR. It's going to say there are all kinds of crossdressing men and they have varying sexual targets.

You say that predominantly they are sexually attracted to women. This could be true. But its representation is the opposite in amateur pornography.

Overwhelmingly, when you see non-professional amateur porn showing crossdressing men they are having sex with a) other crossdressing men, and b) men who are not crossdressing and simply appear as straight.

That doesn't necessarily mean that reality and pornography are the same thing. But porn showing crossdressing men having sex with women (who appear straight) is not so common.

Maybe this part is more about who are the consumers of pornography rather than who represents the predominant kind of crossdressing man.

No, really, it doesn't say any of what you think it says. You're so far off beam it's embarrassing. Either read it and comment from a position of knowledge of what it says, or talk about something else.

 

[Rolfe]

Unfortunately, the goalkeeper couldn't wait for intermission and slogged to the bathroom with 10 minutes left in the first half. What was a 1 nil lead quickly turned into an 8 goal deficit. The team couldn't recover in the 2nd half and rumor has it the loo maintenance folks weren't too happy either.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Yeah.....I don't think anyone should make the mistake of thinking pornography represents reality to any significant degree...

 

[William Parcher]

No, really, it doesn't say any of what you think it says. You're so far off beam it's embarrassing. Either read it and comment from a position of knowledge of what it says, or talk about something else.

I originally said that most crossdressing men are sexually attracted to other men. You said that is wrong, they are mostly sexually attracted to women, and here read this. So, I don't have to read it to know what it says about what I originally said because you already told me. You told me it says that crossdressing men are mainly attracted to women.

 

[William Parcher]

Yeah.....I don't think anyone should make the mistake of thinking pornography represents reality to any significant degree...

In certain ways, amateur porn must represent some form of reality because it's people taking pictures of what they do.

 

[Rolfe]

I originally said that most crossdressing men are sexually attracted to other men. You said that is wrong, they are mostly sexually attracted to women, and here read this. So, I don't have to read it to know what it says about what I originally said because you already told me. You told me it says that crossdressing men are mainly attracted to women.

No, it doesn't say that at all. It explains about the three different categories of trans-identifying people, what age of onset these occur at, which sex they affect, and the underlying psychological explanations for the behaviour. Which sex they are attracted to is only one aspect, and not the most important one (some AGP men want relationships with heterosexual men, but most self-identify as lesbian woman, much to the discomfort of the actual lesbians whose panties they're trying to get into).

It points out that in western societies most MtF trans are AGP, while in the middle east most are HSTS, and why. Either read it or talk about something else. If you haven't read it, you don't know anything about the trans debate. Even Tyr, though he disagrees, knows what it actually says.

 

[Ziggurat]

Your cited alternate factor isn't actually one.

People can and have been misdiagnosed with ADHD, and autism. They didn't 'stop' being these things; they stop being identified as them because they never were.

If your claim is that people who detransition were never authentically trans to begin with, that doesn't remove the problem, it only relabels it. Misdiagnosis is absolutely and obviously subject to external factors, so you have to consider if something has changed to increase the rate of misdiagnosis. Given that diagnosis is primarily self-diagnosis, it's even possible that you could have the majority of diagnoses being misdiagnoses. And that would be a major problem, since going through medical transition does considerable harm to anyone who is misdiagnosed. So have conditions changed such that the rate of misdiagnoses has increased?

But of course, that's predicated on the assumption that detransitioned individuals were not authentically trans, and there's really no support for that.

Also, the idea of 'discovering' and 'experimenting' with one's sexuality is, you know, a widely known thing. People do indeed think they might be a lesbian, then find out they are not. And this actual shows a very important blind spot in your own reasoning, a large bias. Does someone who finds they are trans, and stay trans mean that the prevalence of being cis could be caused by 'trends'?

Obviously yes, since trans vs. cis. is a fixed-sum game. It's a simple mathematical fact that if trends affect trans rates, they also affect cis rates. It's not a blind spot in by reasoning, it's not a bias I have, I'm not in denial about that. I didn't bother mentioning it because it's blindingly obvious, and it's not the focus of what we're talking about.

Don't worry, I don't expect you to alter your ideology one bit.

What you expect isn't of any interest to me. I'm interested in evidence.

 

[Ziggurat]

You are right that this is a lot like the 'Satanic panic' thing, only you're the side that's panicked.

Trans advocates are continually arguing that denying transition, even to prepubescent children, increases their risk of suicide. The fear of suicide is absolutely a panic, and it's coming from the trans advocate side, not from the trans skeptics' side.

 

[Ziggurat]

In certain ways, amateur porn must represent some form of reality because it's people taking pictures of what they do.

That’s like saying all acting is reality, so long as you don’t use special effects. But the sense in which that is true is not what people generally mean.

 

[William Parcher]

You got way too much drama going on here with this drama animation drama.

 

[Rolfe]

Why don't you just read it? It's not that long and it's both interesting and informative.

Have you any idea how foolish you look, refusing to read an article while blustering (entirely wrongly) about what you think it says?

 

[William Parcher]

Why don't you just read it? It's not that long and it's both interesting and informative.

I plan to. It's too long right now.

Have you any idea how foolish you look, refusing to read an article while blustering (entirely wrongly) about what you think it says?

You mean that it doesn't say??...

Most crossdressing men are sexually attracted to women.

 

[Rolfe]

No, it doesn't.

 

[theprestige]

In certain ways, amateur porn must represent some form of reality because it's people taking pictures of what they do.

May? Yes. Must? No. Sometimes it's people trying to do professional porn, but lacking the funds and experience to do it well. Other times it's professionals selling an "amateur" narrative. Still other times it's amateurs doing a version of sex that they learned from porn.

Then there's the flip side of the coin. Elise Graves is a professional masochist. But she's also a hobbyist who enjoys the challenge of being trapped in extreme stress positions. You see one of her bondage shoots, you're seeing a real thing that only happens when she's working with professionals who have the resources and the experience to push her limits safely and well - and pay her for it. There's a reality there that you'll never see from an amateur putting on a half assed "bondage" show.

 

[tyr_13]

I plan to. It's too long right now.


You mean that it doesn't say??...

Most crossdressing men are sexually attracted to women.

The trouble you are having is you are trying to make their hypothesis make a lot more sense than it actually does. Think of it more like other woo, and it makes more sense.

Blanchard argues that most trans women are actually autogynophilic men, who are aroused by the thought of their bodies being women, as a paraphelia. But to have this even kind of line up with obvious observed reality, the goalpost must be shifted to make it a sexual orientation. But that doesn't actually make more sense either because post transition trans women lose the 'autogynophilic' adjacent behaviors and feelings, even his key example. This leads him to pretend that she must have 'pair bonded' to herself, living in a sort of sexless marriage. Which is even dumber as explanations go.

It doesn't make much sense at all. (Sorry if I'm not following your string of exchanges well and it could be talking about something else, I've not read that blog post linked to either).


I know it's a long video, but that ContraPoints youtube I linked to earlier lays it out better between about 35:00 to 38:10.

 

[tyr_13]

If your claim is that people who detransition were never authentically trans to begin with, that doesn't remove the problem, it only relabels it. Misdiagnosis is absolutely and obviously subject to external factors, so you have to consider if something has changed to increase the rate of misdiagnosis. Given that diagnosis is primarily self-diagnosis, it's even possible that you could have the majority of diagnoses being misdiagnoses. And that would be a major problem, since going through medical transition does considerable harm to anyone who is misdiagnosed. So have conditions changed such that the rate of misdiagnoses has increased?

But of course, that's predicated on the assumption that detransitioned individuals were not authentically trans, and there's really no support for that.



Obviously yes, since trans vs. cis. is a fixed-sum game. It's a simple mathematical fact that if trends affect trans rates, they also affect cis rates. It's not a blind spot in by reasoning, it's not a bias I have, I'm not in denial about that. I didn't bother mentioning it because it's blindingly obvious, and it's not the focus of what we're talking about.



What you expect isn't of any interest to me. I'm interested in evidence.

You're so interested in evidence you never click the links, but instead try to reverse the burden of proof.

You assert there is a problematic increase in people believing they are trans because the consequences aren't high enough. Go prove it. I'm quite satisfied that the stigma and consequences of coming out as trans are still more than sufficient to suppress that number more than a 'trend' inflating it.

Yes, it is a bias you have, but I'm not surprised you still refuse to get it. You're not gasping something you called 'blindingly obvious' because it isn't consistent with your hand-wave. I expect nothing more from your arguments.

Trans advocates are continually arguing that denying transition, even to prepubescent children, increases their risk of suicide. The fear of suicide is absolutely a panic, and it's coming from the trans advocate side, not from the trans skeptics' side.

The best treatment is acceptance as the gender they believe they are and trans children who are supported by their families have suicide rates fall to below that of straight white cis men. (The suicide rate being something you trans 'skeptics' cite to prove being trans is a mental disorder, that is very entertaining to me personally.) Doing this doesn't cause the harms (men lying and going into women's locker rooms and sniffing their legs!) that you trans 'skeptics' are panicked about.

 

[Belz...]

They're flat wrong, and discredited. This is why their views are not used in actual research nor treatment regimes advised by the major associations.

I think it's fair to say, however, that there's quite a bit of politics and social pressure in this area, at this time.

So you say they're discredited, Rolfe says the opposite. Who's got the evidence to back it up?

 

[Rolfe]

... trans children who are supported by their families have suicide rates fall to below that of straight white cis men. (The suicide rate being something you trans 'skeptics' cite to prove being trans is a mental disorder, that is very entertaining to me personally.)

That's not true about the suicide rates. Child suicide is extremely rare and trawling the UK statistics couldn't identify any trans children among them. Adult trans suicide rates are higher than baseline but they don't get any better if the person actually transitions, in some studies they get worse.

Statistics for trans murders are a pack of lies too. Transwomen are murdered at a lower rate than just about any other group in the UK. Lower rate than women, and a lower rate than men.

 

[Belz...]

If your claim is that people who detransition were never authentically trans to begin with, that doesn't remove the problem, it only relabels it.

In fact, it adds a problem: if someone can be mistaken about their gender identify, that certainly flies in the face of the idea that gender = identity.

 

[tyr_13]

I think it's fair to say, however, that there's quite a bit of politics and social pressure in this area, at this time.

So you say they're discredited, Rolfe says the opposite. Who's got the evidence to back it up?

I already linked to two sources breaking down Blanchard's hypothesis completely. Politics and social pressure have been leveraging that evidence, yes as well as some bad arguments like 'woman's souls' but that's more use of creative language to compress a complex idea.

The actual expert organizations in the relevant fields agree (broadly) with me. That's why you aren't seeing the 'skeptics' link to WHO, APA, etc.

As I said, this is like engineers who tell climate scientists they are wrong on AGW.