Trans Women are not Women

[Butter!]

How many daughters have you had? I ask, because that's so completely wrong it's at massive odds with your previous, informative posts.

Little girls defecate in their nappies, and when they get old enough to sit up, the faeces gets squashed into the vagina. Most sensible parents wipe it out with designated cloths.

I would have said it's impossible to change nappies and not see the vagina.

Hahahahaha! I tried to respond the same thing about diaper changes on baby girls. I typed it out about 10 different ways, all of which seemed gross and indelicate, before I finally just said, "**** it. Someone more blunt than I will handle this." TA to the rescue !

I don't have any children, but some of my friends do, and my cousins all seem to believe that they are part of some atheist faction of the Quiverfull movement. Babies just sort of fall out them every couple of months. It's unbelievable. So yeah, I've changed my fair share of diapers along the way. I have definitely had to wipe in... well, the way described above. Like, vagina confirmed, etc.

Of course, my understanding is that certain intersex conditions that involve undescended testes can also include very shallow vaginas. So the opening would look normal to someone changing a diaper, but if an interior examination were performed by a doctor, they'd find more of a pseudo-vagina.

I'm not talking about Semenya, by the way, just in general. I don't know what kind of bits she has, and I don't really think I should speculate. I feel sorry for her. This must be humiliating.

 

[Belz...]

I don't have numbers for what the fraction is, but this was informative:

Oh, a video. I'll have to try to remember to check it out when I'm out of firewall range.

 

[Rolfe]

I agree, a psychological or psychiatric condition should first be treated with psychology or psychiatry, not with surgery or hormones.

One aspect you didn't talk about is sexual abuse. A lot of transgender people are survivors of sexual assault, and transition is an attempt to deal with that by changing their sexual characteristics from what their abusers were attracted to. But it's a maladaptive response.

No, I thought I'd gone on long enough already. The other related thing I didin't talk about is the strong suspicion that some of the drive to give children puberty blockers and trans-sex hormones is about child abuse. About people who want to keep these children pre-pubescent for nefarious purposes. One of the clinicians who resigned from the Tavistock spoke about a case she'd dealt with where the father was pushing strongly for his daughter to be given puberty blockers. She said in hindsight she became convinced the father was sexually abusing the girl.

I have also read suggestions that the push to insist that minor children have the capacity to consent to what is in effect a "sex change" is part of a strategic push to have children of a similar age deemed to have the capacity to consent to sex. While I have no particular knowledge of this aspect and it seems somewhat far-fetched, it's something a number of people who have been closely observing the push to trans children have alleged.

 

[Rolfe]

It's almost like people have forgotten what a tomboy is. A tomboy is still a girl, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them.

There are a lot of adult women right now looking at what is happening to little girls in utter horror, and saying, "there but for the grace of God (and the good luck of being born forty or fifty years earlier) go I."

I personally wanted to be a boy when I was a child, because boys got all the cool stuff, got to wear the comfortable clothes, got to do the fun things, didn't get told off for doing things I got told off for, and weren't made to do the dishes. Also, it was easier to get into the career I wanted back then if you were a boy. It wasn't something I made a big fuss about though. However I've heard a number of middle-aged women telling about how they were very vocal about wanting to be a boy when they were little, even insisting they were boys, and grew out of it completely when they went through puberty. Some are happily married with children, some are happily lesbian. All of them are horrified at the thought they could have been medically and surgically turned into men because of that phase of their lives.

 

[Rolfe]

Hahahahaha! I tried to respond the same thing about diaper changes on baby girls. I typed it out about 10 different ways, all of which seemed gross and indelicate, before I finally just said, "**** it. Someone more blunt than I will handle this." TA to the rescue !

I don't have any children, but some of my friends do, and my cousins all seem to believe that they are part of some atheist faction of the Quiverfull movement. Babies just sort of fall out them every couple of months. It's unbelievable. So yeah, I've changed my fair share of diapers along the way. I have definitely had to wipe in... well, the way described above. Like, vagina confirmed, etc.

Of course, my understanding is that certain intersex conditions that involve undescended testes can also include very shallow vaginas. So the opening would look normal to someone changing a diaper, but if an interior examination were performed by a doctor, they'd find more of a pseudo-vagina.

I'm not talking about Semenya, by the way, just in general. I don't know what kind of bits she has, and I don't really think I should speculate. I feel sorry for her. This must be humiliating.

Isissxn, you're a woman. Please, please tell me you know the difference between the vulva, the vestibule and the vagina! If not, go follow Dr Jennifer Gunter on twitter or read her blog or her books. I'm now beginning to realise why she tweets so much about people not knowing the difference.

ETA: Here, look at this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulval_vestibule (Picture possibly NSFW.) I'm sure the woman in the picture has a vagina, as they wouldn't have asked someone with a DSD to pose for that photo. However, even though she is spread so wide you can see "everything", you can't actually tell that she has a vagina. The vaginal opening (just on the edge of the dotted line near the bottom) is nearly closed and it will only open if you try to penetrate it with something. Imagine what you'd have to do to establish that that woman had a patent vagina that actually went somewhere? If she didn't consent it would be sexual abuse.

 

[DragonLady]

I have also read suggestions that the push to insist that minor children have the capacity to consent to what is in effect a "sex change" is part of a strategic push to have children of a similar age deemed to have the capacity to consent to sex

OMG! That makes perfect sense!

 

[theprestige]

That settles it: From now on, when I'm in a technical discussion where accuracy is important, I'll use "vagina" in the strict medical sense.

In pretty much every other discussion, including those here, I'll continue to use "vagina" in the colloquial sense.

 

[Belz...]

Isissxn, you're a woman. Please, please tell me you know the difference between the vulva, the vestibule and the vagina! If not, go follow Dr Jennifer Gunter on twitter or read her blog or her books. I'm now beginning to realise why she tweets so much about people not knowing the difference.

I see I'm not the only one who finds the confusion annoying.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh, a video. I'll have to try to remember to check it out when I'm out of firewall range.

Quick summary until then. It's a speaker at a conference talking about how he used to be transgender for decades but then detransitioned, and regrets ever having transitioned in the first place. He was sexually abused as a child, and says that becoming transgender was how he tried (unsuccessfully) to deal with that trama. He now runs a support web page for others who want to detransition, and sexual abuse is a common theme in their experience. Obviously there's going to be a sampling bias in which segment of the transgender community he interacts with the most, so I don't assume that his experience is representative of the entire community, but I doubt it's a negligible fraction either.

 

[Belz...]

Very interesting. Thanks the for theads up.

 

[DragonLady]

Quick summary until then. It's a speaker at a conference talking about how he used to be transgender for decades but then detransitioned, and regrets ever having transitioned in the first place. He was sexually abused as a child, and says that becoming transgender was how he tried (unsuccessfully) to deal with that trama. He now runs a support web page for others who want to detransition, and sexual abuse is a common theme in their experience. Obviously there's going to be a sampling bias in which segment of the transgender community he interacts with the most, so I don't assume that his experience is representative of the entire community, but I doubt it's a negligible fraction either.

A few days ago I heard snippets of a video of someone talking about detransitioning, and saying s/he discovered ALL of the community support they had going to the new sex disappeared completely when they decided to return to the previous sex.

I believe Rolfe is right: the whole thing is going to fade away with time. A very large number of people will seek therapy for feeling like their innards don't quite sync with their outtards, but they'll be taught to change the way they view themselves in respect to the world, instead of being encouraged to physically alter themselves.

A very tiny number will probably continue to go the whole course every year, but I suspect it will be vanishingly small.

 

[Rolfe]

That settles it: From now on, when I'm in a technical discussion where accuracy is important, I'll use "vagina" in the strict medical sense.

In pretty much every other discussion, including those here, I'll continue to use "vagina" in the colloquial sense.

This woman was unaware that there even was a colloquial sense. It's pretty important to us to know the difference. [Looks in Isissxn's direction...] Well most of us.

The vagina is the muscular tube that runs from the upper limit of the vestibule to the cervix. It is entirely internal. Even to visualise the lower end requires intimate examination closer than anyone should decently examine an infant. It is completely impossible to tell whether an infant girl has a patent vagina by no more intimate contact than would be required to change a nappy.

And this is important. People are saying, "Caster Semenya has a vagina." We simply don't know that. I think it's highly unlikely that she has one. If what they really mean is that Caster Semenya as a baby had external genitalia that resembled the labia majora of the vulva they need to say so. Because then the correct response can be tendered, which is that the ambiguous genitalia of an infant with a DSD usually do resemble the labia majora of the vulva whether that infant is male or female.

 

[Rolfe]

A few days ago I heard snippets of a video of someone talking about detransitioning, and saying s/he discovered ALL of the community support they had going to the new sex disappeared completely when they decided to return to the previous sex.

I believe Rolfe is right: the whole thing is going to fade away with time. A very large number of people will seek therapy for feeling like their innards don't quite sync with their outtards, but they'll be taught to change the way they view themselves in respect to the world, instead of being encouraged to physically alter themselves.

A very tiny number will probably continue to go the whole course every year, but I suspect it will be vanishingly small.

There are a number of such videos, and the story is always the same. Nobody detransitions and if you think you're doing that you were never really trans to begin with so we shun you, imposter and traitor. These people (mostly young women) are mobbed and abused by trans activists, as is everyone who tries to draw attention to their existence. A psychologist at Bath Spa university (James Caspian) who noticed how many he was seeing got approval for a research project to study and quantify the phenomenon. However when the project became known about the university was targeted by trans activists who said the very idea of the study was hateful. The university withdrew his research grant on the grounds that if the project went ahead the university might be criticised on social media and that would be a bad thing. So much for academic freedom.

I saw a touching hour-long documentary in Swedish (with subtitles) about this phenomenon, and the way children are being fast-tracked into transitioning with counselling being prohibited as hateful conversion therapy. A detransitioned young woman (who seems to be a native Finnish speaker so she speaks in English in the film) allowed film-makers access to her life as she tries to get back to being a woman - a woman with a baritone voice (we see her having singing lessons), no breasts, no ovaries, no uterus and a bit of a problem with facial hair (which she plucks). If I find the link again I'll post it.

I think it is as a result of this documentary that Sweden has, I hear, just banned testosterone and mastectomies in adolescent girls and mandated counselling. I hope that's true.

ETA: Google is my friend. Here it is. I was transfixed. https://www.svtplay.se/video/220354.../uppdrag-granskning-sasong-20-the-trans-train

 

[Belz...]

I believe Rolfe is right: the whole thing is going to fade away with time. A very large number of people will seek therapy for feeling like their innards don't quite sync with their outtards, but they'll be taught to change the way they view themselves in respect to the world, instead of being encouraged to physically alter themselves.

Last time I suggested something along those lines I was told in no uncertain terms that I was a bigot who wanted trans people to be bullied and to commit suicide.

 

[Rolfe]

OMG! That makes perfect sense!

Oh dear, does it? I'd hoped the suggestion might be some people's over-active imagination.

 

[d4m10n]

Once we get past our current trans-inclusivist social phase (assuming your prediction comes true) what sort of tests will be used to determine the set of people who are eligible to compete in top level women's sport? SRY protein testing? Hormone levels? Other (perhaps sonographic) tests for specific internal organs?

Anyone else is welcome to chime in here.

Basically, what test or combination of tests ought to be used by top-level women's leagues?

 

[Rolfe]

Last time I suggested something along those lines I was told in no uncertain terms that I was a bigot who wanted trans people to be bullies and to commit suicide.

Yes, me too. I stopped posting on the topic here, partly because I was fed up being called a terf, a transphobe, a bigot and a hater, but mostly because every post I made was grossly misrepresented, misconstrued and misquoted by the trans advocates and it was frankly wearing.

I came back to see what people were saying about the Semenya ruling, and I'm detecting a distinct shift in attitude. This is encouraging.

 

[angrysoba]

This position is internally consistent and based on clear principles. But the reason we don't do it is because most people don't actually share those principles. Most people think it's OK to discriminate between men and women, at least in certain ways, and separating women's sports from men's sports is consistent with accepted forms of discrimination.

The US Strength Lifting Federation has taken a slightly non-traditional approach: instead of having a men's division and a women's division, it has an open division and a women's division. Only biological females can enter the women's division. Anyone, not just men, can enter the open division.

Good ol Rip!

 

[Rolfe]

Anyone else is welcome to chime in here.

Basically, what test or combination of tests ought to be used by top-level women's leagues?

Absence of a functioning SRY gene, female. Presence of an SRY gene but absence of a functional androgen response, female. Both functional SRY gene and functional androgen response, male.

That's the definition apparently being used by the CAS and it seems absolutely correct to me. Caster Semenya is in the third category, and she knew that. The appeal was a bit of a Hail Mary pass, probably prompted by the SA athletics authorities not wanting to have their star runner slowed down by testosterone blockers.

I believe there is a very small group of men that are misclassified by that, those with a DSD known as XX SRY-negative males. I believe there is some provision to screen them out as well but I'm not quite sure what the exact criterion is. It's a very small number of people, only about 20% of XX males which are themselves only small in number. (The other 80% have an SRY gene translocated on to an X chromosome and so are correctly classified by the main criteria.)

 

[DragonLady]

Last time I suggested something along those lines I was told in no uncertain terms that I was a bigot who wanted trans people to be bullies and to commit suicide.

Yes; me too.

I do believe gender dysmorphia is likely a very real thing. But, is it always a real problem that requires such drastic measures to treat?

I harbor no hatred for people who choose to change their bodies or identities or both. I'm absolutely against bullying them, and am categorically, utterly against suicide.

But I'm very, very skeptical of a great many of the claims being made regarding these conditions, and don't see the current shove toward medical interventions or of bullying the vast majority of people into accepting those who have been so altered as being identical to those who were born to a particular sex.

Finally, I simply know too many men who will cheerfully declare themselves to be lesbian women if there's even a small chance they'll be accepted into the locker rooms and showers of natural women. The potential for abuse is HUGE.

But...having been on the left for most of my life, I find myself further and further on the "right wing" side of things for refusing to be swept away with the crowd and continuing to call things the way I see them.

I believe some very few people are -or will be- genuinely happier in a body made to resemble the opposite sex of their birth. But very, very few.