2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker

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TragicMonkey said:
I don't need anything of the sort, I was explaining why I vote as I do, not trying to persuade anybody else of who to vote for.
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But those opinions must be based on something. I'm always wary of people who tell me they're not trying to convince me, even though they insist on broadcasting their opinions and convictions.

If you think they're hostile towards the middle-class, you should be able to support that with more than a single data point. I don't think my request is unreasonable.
 
Belz... said:
But those opinions must be based on something. I'm always wary of people who tell me they're not trying to convince me, even though they insist on broadcasting their opinions and convictions.

If you think they're hostile towards the middle-class, you should be able to support that with more than a single data point. I don't think my request is unreasonable.
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I think the idea that the Democratic party is hostile to the middle class is patently absurd.
 
Confession "Middle Class" is too nebulous, broadly defined, and ill defined to really be a useful metric; questions of which major party is better for them nothwithstanding.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Biden doesn't need to lose the race himself, Pelosi already lost it for him. Any candidate the party leadership pushes is tainted with all the mistakes the party has made and all the dissatisfactions the voters have. How else did Trump end up beating the actual Republican candidates?
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I think this is miles off base, and it's my sense that there are two faults in your thinking:

(1) You blame Pelosi for things that are out of her control. Our leaders, Speaker and POTUS among them, have limits to their powers.
(2) You blame Pelosi for being pragmatic. It's unfortunate that's become a dirty word to many on the left. In my view, she's doing more to advance progressive policies than anyone on the national stage.

If there's anything in particular that you take issue with Pelosi on, I'm all eyes. If the basis for your condemnation is vague, maybe you should reconsider.

Add: Not long ago, I though she needed to go and make way for the next generation. Based on the election, and her performance since the election, clearly I was wrong.
 
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varwoche said:
I think this is miles off base, and it's my sense that there are two faults in your thinking:

(1) You blame Pelosi for things that are out of her control. Our leaders, Speaker and POTUS among them, have limits to their powers.
(2) You blame Pelosi for being pragmatic. It's unfortunate that's become a dirty word to many on the left. In my view, she's doing more to advance progressive policies than anyone on the national stage.

If there's anything in particular that you take issue with Pelosi on, I'm all eyes. If the basis for your condemnation is vague, maybe you should reconsider.

Add: Not long ago, I though she needed to go and make way for the next generation. Based on the election, and her performance since the election, clearly I was wrong.
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I was using Pelosi as synecdoche, to represent the whole of the core Democratic leadership. She's a symptom of the problem, and an example of it, but not the cause. As for her doing "more" to advance progressive policies I haven't seen that. Wasn't she the one who assured health insurors that they don't need to worry, Medicare For All won't happen? Why is she sniping at AOC?
 
It's cute how there's this quaint belief that divergence in social-political beliefs can be reconciled by rational means and demands for evidence.

It's enough to know this growing disdain for the Pelosi/Schumer/Hoyer leadership era is an attitude that persists.

If for no other reason than pragmatism works both ways.
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
It's cute how there's this quaint belief that divergence in social-political beliefs can be reconciled by rational means and demands for evidence.

It's enough to know this growing disdain for the Pelosi/Schumer/Hoyer leadership era is an attitude that persists.

If for no other reason than pragmatism works both ways.
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Perhaps each and every person who doesn't like Biden can be lectured at until they do?
 
TragicMonkey said:
I was using Pelosi as synecdoche, to represent the whole of the core Democratic leadership. She's a symptom of the problem, and an example of it, but not the cause. As for her doing "more" to advance progressive policies I haven't seen that. Wasn't she the one who assured health insurors that they don't need to worry, Medicare For All won't happen? Why is she sniping at AOC?
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Because Pelosi, who is grounded in reality and is a cunning strategist, knows that the path to victory in 2020 lies in large part with with malleable, white working class voters in PA, MI and WI.

Delphic Oracle said:
It's cute how there's this quaint belief that divergence in social-political beliefs can be reconciled by rational means and demands for evidence.
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I'm way not a fan of posts addressed to dead air. It's a lousy way to communicate.

I assume this is in reference to my post above. If so, what an asinine characterization. That was a gentle "demand" indeed.

TragicMonkey said:
Perhaps each and every person who doesn't like Biden can be lectured at until they do?
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Ditto re dead air.

Just in case this was meant for me... enjoy.
 
Ziggurat said:
There were no fair means to remove him. How foul would you be willing to get?
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I was speaking of the Republicans, not myself. And fairness and foulness are relative. I'm certain the Republican Party is far too noble to do anything truly wicked.
 
varwoche said:
Because Pelosi, who is grounded in reality and is a cunning strategist, knows that the path to victory in 2020 lies in large part with with malleable, white working class voters in PA, MI and WI.
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Well, I'm glad the Democrats have a cunning strategy for this election and aren't leaving things in the hands of whatever idiot was doing the strategies last time.

If anyone can truly relate to and understand working class Midwesterners it's a millionaire California bone witch.

I'm way not a fan of posts addressed to dead air. It's a lousy way to communicate.
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It's a conversation, not an interrogation. Anybody can say anything to anyone, or generally to everyone present. That's how conversations work. If you want to interview one person at a time find a private chat room.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I was speaking of the Republicans, not myself. And fairness and foulness are relative. I'm certain the Republican Party is far too noble to do anything truly wicked.
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Then let me rephrase: how foul a method would you approve of?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Who said I'd approve?
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I didn't say. I asked.

I said I expected the Republicans to do something, I didn't say I thought they should.
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You haven't said you thought they shouldn't either. Did you think they shouldn't?

But regardless, since the Republican party did not behave as you expected, did this lead you to revise your estimation of the party?
 
Venom said:
Early this year, they said about 49% of registered voters would "definitely vote against" Donald Trump, with only 26% who said they would definitely vote for.

That brings me some relief, though complacency is dangerous of course.

We need someone who can give that push to overwhelm the Trump vote, and I don't know if uncle Joe has it. He's creepy and boring. His creepiness gets cancelled imo by Trump's absolutely revolting behavior for the past 3 years, but he's still boring and the only thing he has going for him right now is he's probably the only Democratic candidate so far who has attacked Trump right out of the gate, as if to suggest he doesn't care about the competition. He's already won; it's between him and Trump now and he'll strike first.
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Maybe. On the other hand, he's both experienced, and a white guy.

I'll be blunt, in my view, and the view of many dem voters, "white voters"TM have not exactly covered themselves in glory the past few years. Note the trademark - we are definitely not discussing every white person, nor every white voter. I'm discussing this as a brand, much like when I say KleenexTM, I mean the actual trademarked product, not just any generic tissue paper.

But *in general*, we've seen a serious outbreak of - how should we say this...white supremacism among "white voters"TM. For example, we've seen the brand endorse a repeatedly disgraced, child molesting judge to the Senate, as well as a medicare fraudster (ETA: or was it *Medicaid* that Rick Scott scammed?). We've also seen that, as of 2016, they prefer an ignorant, petty, narcissistic, racist, anti-Semitic career criminal white guy for president over a highly qualified white woman.

Not that this surprises me in any way, mind you.

And yeah, considering this, and seeing the lavish praise given to empty suits like Mayor Pete or Beto O'Rourke, over vastly superior candidates like Elizabeth Warren or Kamalah Harris, I have to admit I'm unconvinced that "white voters"TM won't flock right back to Dolt 45 over the latter two. And I do expect Biden to push for policies in the next few weeks that are good enough. I'll likely prefer his health care plan over the GOP's current "let them die and their corpses rot in the street" plan, his tax plan over their "new money bins for Scrooge McDuck" tax policy, and his racial views over their "darkies deserve to be killed for being uppity" racial politics.

And I'm going to guess, based on various conversations I've had, that much of the Dem base agrees with me on this. Would I *prefer* Warren? Yes. Is Biden more likely to get good press coverage, and less likely to freak out "white voters"TM? Also yes. And before anyone whines about "lesser of two evils", I'm actually saying that Biden is "less good than Warren, but vastly preferable to the pure unmitigated evil that Cheeto Benito is".
 
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Mumbles said:
And yeah, considering this, and seeing the lavish praise given to empty suits like Mayor Pete or Beto O'Rourke, over vastly superior candidates like Elizabeth Warren or Kamalah Harris, I have to admit I'm unconvinced that "white voters"TM won't flock right back to Dolt 45 over the latter two. And I do expect Biden to push for policies in the next few weeks that are good enough. I'll likely prefer his health care plan over the GOP's current "let them die and their corpses rot in the street" plan, his tax plan over their "new money bins for Scrooge McDuck" tax policy, and his racial views over their "darkies deserve to be killed for being uppity" racial politics.

And I'm going to guess, based on various conversations I've had, that much of the Dem base agrees with me on this. Would I *prefer* Warren? Yes. Is Biden more likely to get good press coverage, and less likely to freak out "white voters"TM? Also yes. And before anyone whines about "lesser of two evils", I'm actually saying that Biden is "less good than Warren, but vastly preferable to the pure unmitigated evil that Cheeto Benito is".
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I can kinda see that.

Biden doesn't rock the boat as much as an Elizabeth Warren. Older white Democrats who largely vote along party lines might be a tad less comfortable voting for Warren than Biden. It's kinda funny but it's not.
 
Ziggurat said:
You haven't said you thought they shouldn't either. Did you think they shouldn't?
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I think for the long term good of their party they would have been wiser to have not had Trump be their candidate. The short term victories they've made with him aren't worth the long term damage he's inflicted.

But regardless, since the Republican party did not behave as you expected, did this lead you to revise your estimation of the party?
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Yes. As a result of letting Trump happen I view the Republican Party as more foolish and less competent than I had previously thought. More pennywise poundfoolish. And that the old guard of quietly ruthless gentleman bastards there has truly died out, leaving the grubby arrivistes in charge. In my view there are now no redeeming qualities left in the Republicans. They can't even be counted on in matters of defense now that they let Russia do as it pleases.
 
acbytesla said:
I think the idea that the Democratic party is hostile to the middle class is patently absurd.
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If TM said that the Democratic party's policies are not necessarily helpful to the middle-class, he might have a point. But saying that they are hostile to the middle-class is bizarre. Unfortunately he doesn't seem interested in discussing it.

TragicMonkey said:
I was using Pelosi as synecdoche, to represent the whole of the core Democratic leadership.
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Well, I learned a new word today. Whether I can spell it properly in the future is yet to be sen.
 
Pelosi's "cunning strategy" of rolling over for the Republicans and joining them in the fight against any sign of progressiveness/populism is sure to finally start bringing Democrat success any year now. (Especially in those few swing states that notoriously swung populist last time.)
 
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