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The Trump Presidency 14

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uke2se said:
I always found the pardoning power weird. It's such a throwback to absolute monarchy to grant one person the power of life, liberty and death. A government clemency committee or some such would be a better option.
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Yes, it is one area where Bob the Coward has a justified complaint
 
theprestige said:
I am, however, interested in the details of Cabbage's proposal of impeachment to teach people a lesson. I hope he'll tell us more about this.

For example: What's the lesson?
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How is posing a question a proposal? Asking someone if I understand their proposal in no way implies I am making a proposal.
 
Cabbage said:
It was a hypothetical question, but you are willfully blind if you don't see great potential for catastrophe with this "president".
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Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
 
Ziggurat said:
Trump was nominated by Republican voters, not "key Republicans". It doesn't generally work for people to admit mistakes on behalf of others, especially if those others don't think it was a mistake.
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To the extent that the votes of rank and file members of either party are unaffected by the statements of party leaders, yes, you've certainly refuted my position.
 
Ziggurat said:
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
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yes, but Trump is less equipped to deal with a crisis than any other president in recent history: a record number of key positions remain unfilled or filled with objectively unqualified people.
There are very few people around him anchored in the normal processes of power.
He has alienated most of the military leadership.
And he is openly hostile to the State Department.


Even if Trump was a policy wiz, under these circumstances he could not properly deal with a significant crisis.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
yes, but Trump is less equipped to deal with a crisis than any other president in recent history: a record number of key positions remain unfilled or filled with objectively unqualified people.
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Most positions aren't relevant in a crisis.

There are very few people around him anchored in the normal processes of power.
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The "normal processes of power" don't have a track record as of late to really recommend them.

He has alienated most of the military leadership.
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Has he? How do you know?

And he is openly hostile to the State Department.
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The State Department was a mess before Trump got here. Again, its track record of performance doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps hostility is warranted.

Even if Trump was a policy wiz, under these circumstances he could not properly deal with a significant crisis.
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So many of the predictions about Trump have already turned out wrong, why should I believe this one?
 
dasmiller said:
To the extent that the votes of rank and file members of either party are unaffected by the statements of party leaders, yes, you've certainly refuted my position.
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Voters follow leaders who deliver results. Trump has been delivering for Republican voters, certainly better than someone like Romney (who had the establishment's approval) was ever able to do. Why should Republican voters conclude Trump was a mistake?
 
Zig, in a crisis, even a deeply flawed system is better than none if you need support.
Trump's transition team was already incapable of interfacing with the Departments, and these people are now gone.
No, the Trump administration has less expertise than any in this century.

The only reason why there is no one challenging the US right now is that Trump is so easy to manipulate.
 
dasmiller said:
And around we go.
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It might help if you were to identify some of the Republican party leaders, and cite some of the things they were saying to encourage voters to nominate Trump in 2016.

Then we could look at what those same leaders are saying today, and what they might say to encourage voters to repudiate Trump in 2020.
 
Ziggurat said:
Voters follow leaders who deliver results. Trump has been delivering for Republican voters, certainly better than someone like Romney (who had the establishment's approval) was ever able to do. Why should Republican voters conclude Trump was a mistake?
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Nonsense. Trump has delivered NO RESULTS that any other Republican couldn't also deliver with a majority Congress. In fact I would argue that Trump has delivered much less.

That is unless you mean Trump has delivered a majority Democratic House of Representatives and endless scandal and corruption.
 
acbytesla said:
Nonsense. Trump has delivered NO RESULTS that any other Republican couldn't also deliver with a majority Congress. In fact I would argue that Trump has delivered much less.
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First, that's a hypothetical. Trump DID deliver, whether or not any other candidate would have. Second, if this hypothetical alternative nominee didn't beat Hillary (and it's not obvious an alternative would have), then no, they wouldn't be able to deliver anything. Romney certainly didn't deliver when he was the nominee. Neither did McCain before him.
 
Ziggurat said:
First, that's a hypothetical. Trump DID deliver, whether or not any other candidate would have. Second, if this hypothetical alternative nominee didn't beat Hillary (and it's not obvious an alternative would have), then no, they wouldn't be able to deliver anything. Romney certainly didn't deliver when he was the nominee. Neither did McCain before him.
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Of course it's a hypothetical. But it is a very reasonable hypothetical. Trump has been successful at getting only one major piece of legislation passed which was a budget busting tax cut. And that is it. What a shock. And his being President has resulted in the loss of the House of Representatives despite a favorable economy.

Good job Trump: rolleyes:
 
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acbytesla said:
9f course it's a hypothetical. But it is a very reasonable hypothetical. Trump has been successful at getting only one major piece of legislation passed which was a budget busting tax cut. And that is it. What a shock. And his being President has resulted in the loss of the House of Representatives despite a favorable economy.

Good job Trump: rolleyes:
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He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.

As for the lack of more legislative accomplishments, who should Republican voters blame for that, Trump or Congressional Republicans? It makes more sense to blame the latter, but those are the very people you think should be saying Trump was the mistake.
 
Ziggurat said:
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
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Every President is confronted by the necessity to make difficult decisions that can result in bad outcomes. But every previous President has devoted a large part of his life to public service of one kind or another, and they have demonstrated a basic knowledge of how government works and a basic commitment to core American values, especially including the rule of law. Trump is an unique aberration. He never intended to become President; he himself saw his campaign as a branding exercise for his sleazy business, and his only concern in this world is what's best for D. Trump. Can you imagine any previous President, Democrat or Republican, standing next to the dictator of a foreign adversary and announcing that he believes his protestations of innocence over his own officials and intelligence services? How can anyone who calls himself a conservative live with himself?
 
Ziggurat said:
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.
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There are plenty of responsible people who think that the Iran deal was good for the U.S. and the world, and scrapping it makes it easier for Iran to build nuclear weapons. Energy production is a result of market forces; if the President had a magic wand, there would never have been gasoline shortages or oil price shocks. What specific regulations do you claim were/are so onerous? The economy has been doing consistently well since Obama saved the world from catastrophe in 2009; Trump doesn't have a magic wand there either, although his bizarre tariff antics could cause tremendous damage.

And his personal corruption and ignorance are a unique danger to all of us.
 
Ziggurat said:
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.

As for the lack of more legislative accomplishments, who should Republican voters blame for that, Trump or Congressional Republicans? It makes more sense to blame the latter, but those are the very people you think should be saying Trump was the mistake.
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EVERY PRESIDENT gets his judges if he has a majority in the Senate. Are you saying Trump has anything to do with that?

And they should blame Trump. The man is a lazy idiot. His administration is a bunch of incompetent sycophants. They don't understand the law. They don't propose well thought out legislation. They think they simply can bully and demand and get their way. Trump said he was going to be the infrastructure president. What a joke. He hasn't proposed a damn infrastructure initiative that EITHER party could or would get behind.

All Trump has actually accomplished is hand the super rich a huge amount of money. Well done turd!
 
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