Mueller Investigation pt5

[smartcooky]

If the main result of the Trump presidency is progressives/socialists becoming limited government Federalists, I would count that as a massive success.

Why would a return US Government back to what the founders intended - three CO-EQUAL branches, be limiting?

The Executive branch has become far too powerful in recent years - it needs reining in. At the very least, the President's power of veto needs to be removed, and his power to pardon must no longer be absolute.

 

[Stacyhs]

Why would a return US Government back to what the founders intended - three CO-EQUAL branches, be limiting?

The Executive branch has become far too powerful in recent years - it needs reining in. At the very least, the President's power of veto needs to be removed, and his power to pardon must no longer be absolute.

A president should not be allowed to pardon himself, anyone he is related to by blood, adoption or marriage, or anyone whose conviction is in any way connected to the president.

 

[BobTheCoward]

A president should not be allowed to pardon himself, anyone he is related to by blood, adoption or marriage, or anyone whose conviction is in any way connected to the president.

Functional rule of law theory needs to gain traction

The functional interpretation of the term "rule of law", consistent with the traditional English meaning, contrasts the "rule of law" with the "rule of man".[36] According to the functional view, a society in which government officers have a great deal of discretion has a low degree of "rule of law", whereas a society in which government officers have little discretion has a high degree of "rule of law".[36] Upholding the rule of law can sometimes require the punishment of those who commit offenses that are justifiable under natural law but not statutory law.[37] The rule of law is thus somewhat at odds with flexibility, even when flexibility may be preferable.[36]

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I suggested that yesterday (Clinton or Obama).

Won't work.

When it's your team, the worst behavior is an aberration, a lapse in good judgement brought on by evil outside influences.
When it's the other team, the worst behavior is a clear sign of even worse crimes still hidden, a pattern of depravity and corruption.

Just data isn't enough, you also need to change the narrative.

 

[smartcooky]

A president should not be allowed to pardon himself, anyone he is related to by blood, adoption or marriage, or anyone whose conviction is in any way connected to the president.

I was more thinking to remove the "absoluteness" of POTUS' pardon powers, so that a proposal is made to pardon someone, and it has to be ratified by both the House and the Senate before it is enacted.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I was more thinking to remove the "absoluteness" of POTUS' pardon powers, so that a proposal is made to pardon someone, and it has to be ratified by both the House and the Senate before it is enacted.

That means you have eliminated separation of powers.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A president should not be allowed to pardon himself, anyone he is related to by blood, adoption or marriage, or anyone whose conviction is in any way connected to the president.

I know, it so needs to be fixed.

"The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1

The power to pardon is one of the least limited powers granted to the President in the Constitution. The only limits mentioned in the Constitution are that pardons are limited to offenses against the United States (i.e., not civil or state cases), and that they cannot affect an impeachment process. A reprieve is the commutation or lessening of a sentence already imposed; it does not affect the legal guilt of a person. A pardon, however, completely wipes out the legal effects of a conviction. A pardon can be issued from the time an offense is committed, and can even be issued after the full sentence has been served. It cannot, however, be granted before an offense has been committed, which would give the President the power to waive the laws.

So offenses committed can be pardoned before they are charged.

I wonder how "affect the impeachment process" applies to everyone involved in the collusion had it amounted to conspiracy? And what if impeachment is warranted but not charged?

 

[uke2se]

I always found the pardoning power weird. It's such a throwback to absolute monarchy to grant one person the power of life, liberty and death. A government clemency committee or some such would be a better option.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

That means you have eliminated separation of powers.

No.
Pardons are already a violation of the Separation Of Power between the Executive and the Judiciary.
Leaving them up to two instead of one branch of government would be entirely in line with the principles of Separation of power.
Main problem is that it would make most 24 plots untenable.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I know, it so needs to be fixed.

"The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1So offenses committed can be pardoned before they are charged.

I wonder how "affect the impeachment process" applies to everyone involved in the collusion had it amounted to conspiracy? And what if impeachment is warranted but not charged?

All it means is that a pardon given to someone (in a position that required confirmation when it was filled) cannot be used to block their removal from office.

It's basically saying this legal instrument doesn't supersede the political consent process.

 

[Childlike Empress]

While we're at press secretaries, for your amusement and enlightenment, here's Lavrov's trusty Maria Zakharova on prime time Russian television ripping into the then-unreleased Mueller report (English subtitles):

 

[smartcooky]

Body Language 101

Which one of these three didn't really want to be there....

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... But to bring it back more along the lines of what I was getting at, the Dems aren’t much better about actually governing. Both sides play the obstruction game.

I seem to recall Obama pulling the country back from the brink of financial ruin from decades of banking deregulation. This is in addition to the very real fact that political deficits have increased more under Republicans than Democrats since 1980 (deficits unrelated to counter-cyclical economic management, and directly tied to bad governance for political gain). Further, much of Obama's deficit is in the form of Quantitative Easing, which is money the country owes itself, and done under extreme conditions. Trump's deficit is frat boy partying, quite simply put. Irresponsible.

Then there is ACA, the Civil Rights Act, a civilian NASA, Universal Declaration of HR (from a stellar Dem First Lady, Eleanor R.)...

 

[Hlafordlaes]

While we're at press secretaries, for your amusement and enlightenment, here's Lavrov's trusty Maria Zakharova on prime time Russian television ripping into the then-unreleased Mueller report (English subtitles):

Sorry, I filter my news sources to avoid outright propaganda. As for Russia, all that sorry culture has ever done is bow to strongmen for red meat since forever. Intellectually, Russian political and social thought can be utterly dismissed with a backhand swipe; zero contest.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

After all, she was asked and had the sense to answer truthfully.

She lied. And she wasn't prosecuted. Which tells you everything you need to know about the argument that Mueller was trying to lure people into perjury traps about non-material issues.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The problem with the pardon power is the same as many of the problems with US laws that Trump's presidency has brought to light - they were written under the assumption that the government would be working for the good of the country. It seems that this presidency has finally made people realise that that's not necessarily a safe assumption.

 

[CapelDodger]

Sorry, I filter my news sources to avoid outright propaganda. As for Russia, all that sorry culture has ever done is bow to strongmen for red meat since forever. Intellectually, Russian political and social thought can be utterly dismissed with a backhand swipe; zero contest.

It's a striking historical fact that the only subject Russia has ever shown an aptitude for is the police state, going right back to the earliest czars. Whether you want to etablish or survive a police state, Russian experience is what you look to.

 

[phiwum]

I always found the pardoning power weird. It's such a throwback to absolute monarchy to grant one person the power of life, liberty and death. A government clemency committee or some such would be a better option.

Minor quibble. It grants the president the ability to grant life or liberty, but not death. The decision to sentence a person to death would have been made prior to a pardon or clemency and by other people.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Sorry, I filter my news sources to avoid outright propaganda. As for Russia, all that sorry culture has ever done is bow to strongmen for red meat since forever. Intellectually, Russian political and social thought can be utterly dismissed with a backhand swipe; zero contest.

It's nice that you and CapelDodger now are at the core of your Russia stance, which is blatant racism. Who was it who said that Russians are just natural thieves, deceivers etc? Brennan? Clapper? Pompeo? One of those ex-Spooks-now-Talking-Heads you allow into your living room for no good reason.

For the others not yet into racism, of course the video I posted is in no way "propaganda", as it is not directed at you. It is just a sample of mainstream Russian Television with the Foreign Ministry Press Secretary as a guest. If you are interested in the topic and have "a filter" like Hf... guy, this can give you an insight into internal Russian communication about 'St. Mueller's report' (which is why I posted it).

 

[phiwum]

She lied. And she wasn't prosecuted. Which tells you everything you need to know about the argument that Mueller was trying to lure people into perjury traps about non-material issues.

Perhaps I am not up on the details. I thought that she admitted under oath that she had not been contacted by a large number of FBI agents.