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The Trump Presidency 14

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acbytesla said:
That's incorrect. The IRS or Internal Revenue Service has been given that deadline. They are the branch of the United States that processes tax returns. Theoretically and legally, the President has no authority to tell the IRS to do anything.
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Minor nitpick, but the request goes to the Secretary of the Treasury, and not to the IRS.

The President is the head of the executive branch. The IRS is part of the executive branch. While the president doesn't have any direct authority over rank and file IRS members, he can, and does, set policy directives. He is in the chain of command, so to speak.
 
Leftus said:
Minor nitpick, but the request goes to the Secretary of the Treasury, and not to the IRS.

The President is the head of the executive branch. The IRS is part of the executive branch. While the president doesn't have any direct authority over rank and file IRS members, he can, and does, set policy directives. He is in the chain of command, so to speak.
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Not really a nitpick. Yes, the IRS is a branch of the executive branch,. However, it is supposed to follow the law and POTUS cannot tell them to disobey the law. He may not order an audit or tell the IRS to selectively ignore a company or citizen. In theory, he is their boss, but their allegiance is to the law. And the law on this is very clear.
 
acbytesla said:
Not really a nitpick. Yes, the IRS is a branch of the executive branch,. However, it is supposed to follow the law and POTUS cannot tell them to disobey the law. He may not order an audit or tell the IRS to selectively ignore a company or citizen. In theory, he is their boss, but their allegiance is to the law. And the law on this is very clear.
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So, like the police, Trump is their "boss" and "signs their paychecks", but doesn't set or administer the laws they have to uphold as part of their jobs.
 
shemp said:
Theoretical question: Since Trump is vermin, couldn't we just call Pest Control to have him removed from office? Not suggesting any harm to him, they could live trap him using a Big Mac as bait.
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A humane trap which confines him without hurting him, and then transport to some confined habitat made to feel like his natural environment, like the office and living quarters environment of a skyscraper :thumbsup: . Give him a cell phone so he can send tweets, and allow spectators so he can hold rallies.

I'm sure everyone would be eternally grateful, and he will be much happier than in his current situation in the wild.
 
shemp said:
Theoretical question: Since Trump is vermin, couldn't we just call Pest Control to have him removed from office? Not suggesting any harm to him, they could live trap him using a Big Mac as bait.
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Only if they burn it to a crisp and put ketchup on it.
 
Trump Tweets

Such a “puff piece” on Nancy Pelosi by @60minutes, yet her leadership has passed no meaningful Legislation. All they do is Investigate, as it turns out, crimes that they instigated & committed. The Mueller No Collusion decision wasn’t even discussed-and she was a disaster at W.H.
 
Norman Alexander said:
So, like the police, Trump is their "boss" and "signs their paychecks", but doesn't set or administer the laws they have to uphold as part of their jobs.
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Nixon tried to get the IRS to go after the political opposition (his enemies list) but the head of the IRS just ignored him.

Interestingly both Nixon and his Vice President violated tax laws. VP Agnew was even convicted and resigned and was replaced by Gerald Ford and then Ford replaced Nixon. Nixon pardoned Agnew and then after Nixon resigned Ford pardoned Nixon preemptively.
 
acbytesla said:
Not really a nitpick. Yes, the IRS is a branch of the executive branch,. However, it is supposed to follow the law and POTUS cannot tell them to disobey the law. He may not order an audit or tell the IRS to selectively ignore a company or citizen. In theory, he is their boss, but their allegiance is to the law. And the law on this is very clear.
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Challenging the law is not the same as disobeying the law.
 
Leftus said:
Challenging the law is not the same as disobeying the law.
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Yeah, it pretty much is. Congress has the authority to issue subpoenas like any judge. And failure to comply puts you in contempt.
 
acbytesla said:
Nixon tried to get the IRS to go after the political opposition (his enemies list)
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Nixon was acting like he thought he was "Boss", which is exactly what Trump tries to do. He thinks the government is just like a business, and as President, he is Boss; everyone has to do exactly what he says or they're fired. Its the only way he knows how to conduct business, because the majority of his businesses are conducted as criminal enterprises.

Unfortunately, he is getting away with it. It needs for Congress to stop talking and start acting, like sending the FBI around to arrest both Steve Mnuchin and John Koskinen and charge them under USC§6103.
 
Leftus said:
Challenging the law is not the same as disobeying the law.
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You challenge the Law in court, not by disobeying it. It would be like the Police coming to arrest me for something, and me telling them that I will be challenging the law under which I am to be charged. If I try that on by resisting arrest, it will not end well for me.

First I must comply with the Law, then I can challenge it.

If Trump wants to challenge the right of Congress to get his Tax returns, he must first comply with the Law, then take Congress to court.
 
Well.. there is civil disobedience. However, that is challenging the law by knowing one will get arrested and done by those who aren't in power. What the Trump regime is doing is trying to assume powers that aren't his to fulfill his authoritarian agenda.
 
smartcooky said:
You challenge the Law in court, not by disobeying it. It would be like the Police coming to arrest me for something, and me telling them that I will be challenging the law under which I am to be charged. If I try that on by resisting arrest, it will not end well for me.

First I must comply with the Law, then I can challenge it.

If Trump wants to challenge the right of Congress to get his Tax returns, he must first comply with the Law, then take Congress to court.
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Or, given the telegraphing in public, file a suit to challenge it and petition for an injunction until a ruling is made. I wonder if there's a position in the West Wing staff for someone who handles the President interacting with the courts. That could be a thing. Nah, just call up a mid-level technocrat and shout at them on the phone (we know he's not good at confrontation in person).
 
smartcooky said:
You challenge the Law in court, not by disobeying it. It would be like the Police coming to arrest me for something, and me telling them that I will be challenging the law under which I am to be charged. If I try that on by resisting arrest, it will not end well for me.

First I must comply with the Law, then I can challenge it.

If Trump wants to challenge the right of Congress to get his Tax returns, he must first comply with the Law, then take Congress to court.
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Not really. You don't have to have an arrest or penalty on file to contest a law. That method has worked well in overturning many laws (civil disobedience during the segue from Jim Crow to Civil Rights eras comes to mind - Rosa Parks being the prime example) but many of Trump's more draconian attempts this term have been taken directly to the courts, no arrests necessary.

In the case of his tax returns, I'm pretty sure he can get a friendly judge to issue a stay against the IRS or Congress and that could proceed to the appellate divisions and supremes.
 
I love this quote from Magistrate Claggett in Deadwood that fits the situation rather well.

"I didn't generate the warrant.

My disappearance won't quash it.

You can't murder an order
or the telegraph that transmitted it
or those that are content
to put food on the table
simply by being its instruments.

It can't be done."

But then he did get his throat cut and nobody was the wiser for years...
 
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