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"Marketplace of Ideas"?

Ideas are not harmful. A good person has never been ruined by a bad book, or a bad thought.


Wow. There is a great deal of history to demonstrate the untruth of that. Fascism, racism, conspiracy theories, anti-vax, totalitarianism, religion, all of these are Ideas. It's precisely these ideas that cause people to do harmful things. Want to take a guess how many people were inspired to commit violence by the idea that Jewish people eat Christian babies and control the world's economy? By the idea that black people are subhuman violent animals?

Or are you insisting that actions exist in a vacuum, uninfluenced by any mental processes?
 
Wow. There is a great deal of history to demonstrate the untruth of that. Fascism, racism, conspiracy theories, anti-vax, totalitarianism, religion, all of these are Ideas. It's precisely these ideas that cause people to do harmful things.

I think both positions can be argued. On the one hand, people can be exposed to the most vile ideas without turning into monsters, while others can take something entirely innocuous and bring it to violent extremes or be inspired by it to do terrible things. In this argument, the problem is with the person, not the idea. And yeah, the idea itself is not dangerous; it's the actions taken in line with that idea.

On the other hand, taking the obvious example of Nazism, it's clear that you have a bunch of otherwise decent people doing insane, monstrous things because they were driven by a terrible idea. I will note, however, that this idea had to be repeated and amplified for years before it came to maturity in that way.

So, still hard to decide whether banning certain ideas is a good... idea. But one way or another, it opens a rather dangerous door, as who determines what's a banned idea can change really quickly, and those who find themselves on the wrong side of the law may not be able to stop it.
 
I think both positions can be argued. On the one hand, people can be exposed to the most vile ideas without turning into monsters, while others can take something entirely innocuous and bring it to violent extremes or be inspired by it to do terrible things. In this argument, the problem is with the person, not the idea. And yeah, the idea itself is not dangerous; it's the actions taken in line with that idea.


Ideas are dangerous, since they incite and inform the actions. Actions have to be triggered by something, they do not happen in a vacuum. Without the ideas, there is no action.

Dangerous ideas work best when they are claiming to solve a problem, and absolve people of personal responsibility in the process. Your life isn't what you want it to be? It's not your fault, it's the fault of Jews, Immigrants, Liberals, Atheists, Clowns, Islam, Black people, etc. Get rid of them, and your life will be better. People tend to prefer simple, easy answers to problems which are very complex and difficult; which is why scapegoating and demagoguery work so very well. And if you can tap into existing prejudices and preconceptions, even better. Religion excels at this, but it's far from the only ideology that does.

People who are able to see the problem for what it is, who are not looking for easy answers, and are not pre-disposed to abdicating responsibility for their own lives and circumstances, are less prone to accepting such ideas unquestioningly.

As for turning into monsters, well, that depends on how you define monsters. The Schutzstaffel were definitely monsters, as were the Nazi leadership. But the rank and file Nazi party members? The general German populace? How monstrous were they? Even the ones who didn't approve of what was going on very rarely took any action to oppose it.

And that, I think, is the true monstrosity. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

And that is what is being advocated by the free speech extremists, for good men to do nothing while evil men promote and recruit and inflame and incite.

On the other hand, taking the obvious example of Nazism, it's clear that you have a bunch of otherwise decent people doing insane, monstrous things because they were driven by a terrible idea. I will note, however, that this idea had to be repeated and amplified for years before it came to maturity in that way.


Nazi-ism/fascist wasn't really around all that long; but it touched on existing prejudices and anger, and provided a pat, simple solution to what was a complex problem. And again, it was relatively few people acting as monsters, and a whole lot of people doing nothing to effectively oppose them.

And we see that today with all of the "fine people" wanna-be fascists going out and committing violence, the bulk of the population sitting back and doing nothing, and those who do fight back against the neo-Nazis and other white nationalists being demonized as "just as bad" as the people who want to exterminate entire ethnicities.

So, still hard to decide whether banning certain ideas is a good... idea. But one way or another, it opens a rather dangerous door, as who determines what's a banned idea can change really quickly, and those who find themselves on the wrong side of the law may not be able to stop it.


Except, as has been pointed out, ideas are not being banned. What is being proposed is restricting the ability for people to promote certain ideas -- which have repeatedly been proven harmful -- in the public sphere. We already do that for some dangerous ideas, and other countries have done so for Nazi-ism and other forms of white supremacism without sliding into totalitarianism, so why would that be the start of a "slippery slope" here? As others have pointed out, the slope isn't really all that slippery when you look at the actual history, and what is being proposed.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of government censorship, however, I am comfortable with holding social medial platforms accountable for their actions regarding harmful content. Facebook and Youtube and others have long indirectly promoted white nationalist content, while suppressing criticism of it (Facebook in particular), because sensationalism drives views, and views drive advertising dollars, and that is how they make their money. And not just white nationalism, but any extreme sensational content that is not outright illegal -- child abuse, animal abuse, and so on. They're quite happy to have it as long as it makes them money, and damn the social consequences.

That's why Facebook and Twitter drug their feet for so long regarding the Russian troll and bots. The trolls drove viewership up, which looked good to advertisers, and they're not going to turn their backs on that kind of money without a very compelling reason. As long as the neo-Nazis are allowed a platform, they will exploit it, and Facebook and Twitter and Youtube will continue to make money off it.
 
Ideas are dangerous

I'm sure you didn't mean to word it that way, because it sounds like you're calling all ideas dangerous.

since they incite and inform the actions. Actions have to be triggered by something, they do not happen in a vacuum. Without the ideas, there is no action.

Well that's not in contradiction to what I said. What I said was that people can be exposed to ideas without necessarily taking them into action. You know how they do that? By either disagreeing with the idea, or believing that it's unwise or not worth the effort or risk of acting upon the idea. That's where education, social pressures and incentives come in.

Sure, ideas can be dangerous. But you know what? I'm very much aware of what the Nazis thought. I've read about their ideology. I've read about the Elders of Zion nonsense. I've discussed 9/11 conspiracy theories and other such theories extensively. I've been exposed to Christian belief all my life. And yet, somehow, I'm not a born-again paranoid antisemite fascist. The issue is not being exposed to an idea, but being unable to evaluate ideas against reality and morality.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

That's an idea, and in a way, it's actually dangerous.

Also: I say, always be wary of people who quote others rather than put things into their own words. ;)

And that is what is being advocated by the free speech extremists, for good men to do nothing while evil men promote and recruit and inflame and incite.

Well, on the other hand you have their direct opponents inciting violence against those who hold these ideas. I hope I don't have to explain the slippery slope there.

Nazi-ism/fascist wasn't really around all that long; but it touched on existing prejudices and anger, and provided a pat, simple solution to what was a complex problem. And again, it was relatively few people acting as monsters, and a whole lot of people doing nothing to effectively oppose them.

Yes, but regardless of all that, it was millions of people acting like or supporting monsters, knowingly, because of years or decades of being exposed to increasingly extreme ideas. People who were otherwise decent and loving. My point is that the relationship between idea and action and morality and decency and so on is complex.

Except, as has been pointed out, ideas are not being banned. What is being proposed is restricting the ability for people to promote certain ideas -- which have repeatedly been proven harmful -- in the public sphere.

That's a distinction without a difference. If you're not allowed to express a thought, it's the same thing as banning that thought.

And harmful is subjective. Right-wingers find harmful things that left-wingers hold dear and vice-versa. Democracy is harmful under certain circumstances; so is capitalism, and yet both are the cornerstones of modern civilisation.

We already do that for some dangerous ideas, and other countries have done so for Nazi-ism and other forms of white supremacism without sliding into totalitarianism, so why would that be the start of a "slippery slope" here? As others have pointed out, the slope isn't really all that slippery when you look at the actual history, and what is being proposed.

I understand what you're saying. All I'm saying is, it's all fine as long as the "right" people hold the big stick.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of government censorship, however, I am comfortable with holding social medial platforms accountable for their actions regarding harmful content.

Sure, no issue there.
 
Nice evasion. It's artwork, which has been ruled to qualify as speech, since it doesn't involve real people in any way. Why is it valid to censor one type of speech, but not another? If we can censor one type of speech -- virtual child porn -- for the protection of society, why is it not valid to censor another type of speech -- white supremacist propaganda -- to protect society?

Wow. There is a great deal of history to demonstrate the untruth of that. Fascism, racism, conspiracy theories, anti-vax, totalitarianism, religion, all of these are Ideas. It's precisely these ideas that cause people to do harmful things. Want to take a guess how many people were inspired to commit violence by the idea that Jewish people eat Christian babies and control the world's economy? By the idea that black people are subhuman violent animals?

Or are you insisting that actions exist in a vacuum, uninfluenced by any mental processes?

First, how are you able to hold both of these ideas, simultaneously? Seems to me you're saying "MY pet idea is just an idea, and can't harm anyone; but YOUR pet idea is potentially harmful to everyone".


There's been a great deal of book burning and censorship throughout history based on the concept that ideas are bad. Entire libraries were sacked, and we don't even know how much information, knowledge and human experience we've lost forever because of it.

I'm boggled that in this day and age, knowing what we know about the harm of censorship, that anyone still wants to argue that ideas should be treated as evil.

Books, websites, movies, music, newspapers, historical records and people of all ages will always be an endless fount of ideas, good and bad.

Everyone has bad ideas and intrusive thoughts. We all occasionally consider committing some heinous crime or harming someone -even someone we love- because it's the nature of being human.

The only humans who never entertain a bad idea or say something that could, in the right light on the right night, cause someone else to act badly, are corpses.

The key is developing a robust sense of right and wrong (which is relevant to the larger society one lives in), and self-control. At the end of the day, a mature individual should be able to entertain ideas from every end of the spectrum, but also be held 100% responsible for his or her own ACTIONS.
 
There's a huge grey area between "We have to accept and embrace all ideas" and "Government jackbooted thugs will drag you away in the middle of the night to be reprogrammed if you don't follow the government line."

It's called "Being wrong" and it used to be a thing I thought we all agreed was a thing that could happen.

2+2=5 is not outlawed. It's not hate speech. It's not illegal to think. But it's still not an open and accepted idea because it's wrong. We don't have a bunch of try-hards demanding we have the "What does 2+2 equal?" talk again so we don't "get too comfortable and it's important to challenge our ideas."
 
There's a huge grey area between "We have to accept and embrace all ideas" and "Government jackbooted thugs will drag you away in the middle of the night to be reprogrammed if you don't follow the government line."

It's called "Being wrong" and it used to be a thing I thought we all agreed was a thing that could happen.

2+2=5 is not outlawed. It's not hate speech. It's not illegal to think. But it's still not an open and accepted idea because it's wrong. We don't have a bunch of try-hards demanding we have the "What does 2+2 equal?" talk again so we don't "get too comfortable and it's important to challenge our ideas."

Sure, we don't need to keep revisiting that conversation because it's an easy one to have. If someone says that 2+2=5 you get four oranges, arrange them into groups of 2, ask the person to count each group individually, then ask them to count them all together. It turns out that one group of 2 plus another group of 2 gives you 4 oranges. If they don't think that generalises to other things ask them to repeat the experiment.

We don't need to censor the idea that 2+2=5, we just need to let the idea that 2+2=4 have exposure.

This is the process that got us to where we are today. It didn't require the censorship of bad ideas, it only required letting those bad ideas interact with good ones in the wild.

It's sort of analogous to me with the rise of Mixed Martial Arts. In the past different martial arts didn't compete with each other and it wasn't clear which were effective and in what ways. When you let martial artists from different traditions fight it becomes clear which techniques and approaches are effective. But it's a messy process that takes time to really make things clear and that evolution and discovery is still happening, 25 years after the first UFC.

The same is true of ideas.
 
Sure, we don't need to keep revisiting that conversation because it's an easy one to have. If someone says that 2+2=5 you get four oranges, arrange them into groups of 2, ask the person to count each group individually, then ask them to count them all together. It turns out that one group of 2 plus another group of 2 gives you 4 oranges. If they don't think that generalises to other things ask them to repeat the experiment.

We don't need to censor the idea that 2+2=5, we just need to let the idea that 2+2=4 have exposure.

This is the process that got us to where we are today. It didn't require the censorship of bad ideas, it only required letting those bad ideas interact with good ones in the wild.

Yep so we get outbreaks of previously cured diseases, that is of course a win it thins out the gullible and the weak. And the terrorist attacks of those radicalized by such movements are a happy price to pay.

We should look at incel attacks not as petty attacks of those radicalized by a few, but rather as the triumph of free speech they are.
 
It was also settled for a very long time that homosexuality was a sin, but we didn't give up on that conversation.

Can you guys explain how we are going to go about deciding which facts are settled and can't be discussed anymore and which ones are open for debate?
 
In any question which can be mathematically framed as "Which is greater? X or Y+HandWringing" the answer is always X.

Again the fact that we don't have an exact line in the sane, that the question of what is still a valid question while still just all having a tacit understanding that certain questions have just answered for all practical purposes is one of those things that's out there for debate is a feature, not a bug.

Again unless you want to be a try-hard demanding we reprove 2+2=4 lest we become too comfortable in our beliefs, what's even being discussed.
 
It was also settled for a very long time that homosexuality was a sin, but we didn't give up on that conversation.

Can you guys explain how we are going to go about deciding which facts are settled and can't be discussed anymore and which ones are open for debate?

I think in the context of this thread that's a bit of a straw man. No one in this thread is arguing that any topic should be illegal to discuss. Personally I've argued that particular private spaces like facebook are not unreasonable in deciding not to provide a space for white supremacists, and that those same ideas shouldn't necessarily be given every public soapbox and protection.

In terms of giving society the ability to change our mind there's still plenty of places to discuss white supremacism. And the only issues that could apply to are those particular issues. So your worry is only relevant if you're worried that we need to give white supremacist a chance to thrive.

The slippery slope argument has been addressed multiple times, so we're really only looking at the effects on these particular ideas.
 
In any question which can be mathematically framed as "Which is greater? X or Y+HandWringing" the answer is always X.
I honestly don't know what this means. I'm probably being thick, it's happened before.

Again the fact that we don't have an exact line in the sane, that the question of what is still a valid question while still just all having a tacit understanding that certain questions have just answered for all practical purposes is one of those things that's out there for debate is a feature, not a bug.
I don't need a line in the sand. I just need to know how we're making this determination. It doesn't even need to be completely clear about every question. Is it just "Those things that JoeMorgue thinks are obvious"? Or what?

Again unless you want to be a try-hard demanding we reprove 2+2=4 lest we become too comfortable in our beliefs, what's even being discussed.
I don't think it's actually a problem that when someone questions 2+2=4 we let them question it.
 
I don't think it's actually a problem that when someone questions 2+2=4 we let them question it.

Well then there's the problem. "The Marketplace of Ideas" only works if accept that time and energy spent there is a finite resource and we can't waste it on crap that's been answered.

You're on the internet. You've been on the JFEF/ISF for a minute. You've been around the block, you know the "I'm winning because I'm still arguing" mentality.
 
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I guess you guys from the UK won't be able to participate in the Woo portions of the ISF now.

UK to unleash internet safety czar on Google, Facebook, Twitter

https://www.cnet.com/news/uk-to-keep-social-networks-in-check-with-internet-safety-regulator/

The regulator will be tasked with ensuring social media companies tackle a range of online problems, including:

- Incitement of violence and the spread of violent (including terrorist) content
- Encouragement of self-harm or suicide
- The spread of disinformation and fake news- Cyberbullying
- Children's access to inappropriate material
- Child exploitation and abuse content

As well as applying to the major social networks, such as Facebook, YouTube and Twitter, the requirements will also have to be met by file-hosting sites, online forums, messaging services and search engines.


How far will the war on "disinformation" go?

disinformation
[disənfərˈmāSH(ə)n]
NOUN
false information which is intended to mislead, especially propaganda issued by a government organization to a rival power or the media.


Giving that kind of power to your government? Groovy! :thumbsup:
 
You're on the internet. You've been on the JFEF/ISF for a minute. You've been around the block, you know the "I'm winning because I'm still arguing" mentality.

Yeah. I guess it just doesn't bother me as much as it does others. I think you've participated in those Jabba threads, whereas I skimmed them, maybe posted once or twice (don't remember), and then just thought "okay, well, this isn't very interesting". It doesn't really bother me that Jabba thinks he's right or winning or whatever when it's obvious to everyone that he's not.

That same is true of a lot of the crackpots. I actually find it interesting when someone comes along and says the earth is flat or whatever and we have to think of how exactly we know and can demonstrate that it's not. But after that's been done and obviously the guy just keeps up with his ridiculous nonsense, well, okay, you keep being you dude. I usually just stop paying attention at that point.
 
I think in the context of this thread that's a bit of a straw man.

Having read the thread a few days ago, I may be a little confused, and the little exchange with Joe perhaps ended up on a tangent that led to me misattribute some of the ideas being presented here. If so my bad. I'm in a bit of a rush right now, so I'll have to go back and look through the thread later.

It just seems to me that while it seems obvious that we should censor white supremacists, it's not clear what attribute of white supremacism allows us to make that decision and doesn't apply to other things. I'm open to the idea that there is a reasonable criteria that includes that but won't include ideas that will turn out to be true but are just unpopular now.

For instance we all probably disagree with violent animal rights activists. But when it comes down to it it's not so clear to me that they are wrong. I am not sure what to think about that issue, and think that at any case it's better to try to affect change peacefully than violently, but perhaps in the future when looked at through hindsight things will seem different. That's just a random example to suggest that maybe while it seems easy to decide what to censor I think it's good to have a clear criteria.

Having said all this you've probably already spelled out such a criteria and I just missed it, in which case just ignore the lazy dude who needs to go back over the thread.
 
The 'marketplace of ideas' is as much of a con-trick as any other unfettered market. It's almost amusing, but actually scary, how much Americans fetishize their imagined freedoms in preference to their own actual well-being.

In any unfettered market who is successful? Those with enough resources to dominate and those who are willing to act dishonestly. Why would an unfettered market of ideas be any different?

Oh look at who is your President.... it isn't any different it turns out!
 
The 'marketplace of ideas' is as much of a con-trick as any other unfettered market. It's almost amusing, but actually scary, how much Americans fetishize their imagined freedoms in preference to their own actual well-being.

In any unfettered market who is successful? Those with enough resources to dominate and those who are willing to act dishonestly. Why would an unfettered market of ideas be any different?

Oh look at who is your President.... it isn't any different it turns out!


By that reasoning the people of North Korea are genuinely living the Paradise on Earth their leaders say they're living.
 

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