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2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker

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Again, I would remind you that I am not a Biden fan either but I do not want him on a substantive basis, not because he's "creepy".

Like getting Ukraine to fire the prosecutor investigating the company that his son was a board member of? Yeah, that probably does matter more than his creepy hands.

But he's really got no one to blame for his creepy problem, because he helped establish the standards that are now being turned against him.
 
Your second paragraph suggests that the problem was a Democratic election strategy that took some critical states for granted. You're right - BIG mistake.



But let me ask about "not Trump" being a disadvantage. Take a time-travel trip with me to September-October, 2016. From that perspective, why is "not Trump" a disadvantage.



I'm asking to see if you're just taking advantage of 20/20 hindsight or whether you have something that is of value for 2020.
People were pissed off at the establishment.
 
The real problem with Biden as a candidate isn't whether he could win; even Hillary could have won easily with only the tiniest adjustments, and she was the worst they could find. The problem is the damage he would do to his party if he did. The more of this kind of stuff the Democrats go along with, the harder it gets to take them seriously as a party that cares at all about sexually inappropriate behavior.
 
It's one think to say, "Joe, don't do that any more." and another to say "You're not fit to hold office, you creepy old man".

Do you really think that not once in his life he was told that he needed to reduce this? I feel certain that he has heard that from staffers and his response has been something along the lines of "that is how I connect with people, and I win so deal with it." There is a good likelihood that this is what the first draft of his "apology" said before someone stepped in to clean it up.
 
The real problem with Biden as a candidate isn't whether he could win; even Hillary could have won easily with only the tiniest adjustments, and she was the worst they could find. The problem is the damage he would do to his party if he did. The more of this kind of stuff the Democrats go along with, the harder it gets to take them seriously as a party that cares at all about sexually inappropriate behavior.

Agreed.
 
I was somewhat surprised how many of the other books Pete mentioned that I had read; The Little Prince, Wolf Hall, and the Quiet American. And all of them were teeth-pulling exercises. Wolf Hall is one of those dreadful novels written in "historical present" tense that is insanely confusing.

You thought The Little Prince was a teeth-pulling exercise?
 
I'm an avid reader. But I don't do a lot of re-reading. Not sure what I'd pick for the short list of books I'd be stuck reading over and over again. Maybe Ulysses makes sense in that context. My understanding is that it would take several read-throughs just to get started.

So. I guess for me it'd have to be large works of classical literature, that would benefit from several readings from several different places in one's own life.

Things like:
The Oddysey
The Collected Works of Shakespeare
The collected works of one or two prolific poets
Shardik (I got about halfway through it before I realized it wasn't an adventure novel for kids, but a rather deep and challenging exploration of several themes I was barely grasping. A desert island would be a great opportunity to go back and really grapple with the material.)
Some non-western literature. (Again, a desert island would be a great opportunity to sit down and really study other views and ideas.) Probably the Rubayat, some meditations on Daoism, etc.
 
Do you really think that not once in his life he was told that he needed to reduce this? I feel certain that he has heard that from staffers and his response has been something along the lines of "that is how I connect with people, and I win so deal with it." There is a good likelihood that this is what the first draft of his "apology" said before someone stepped in to clean it up.

Maybe, maybe not. But even if it was mentioned, it didn't sink in. And I really believe it was successful campaigning for him. Biden won his first election and that was for the United States Senate at the age of 30 back in 1972. This was a young good looking gregarious charismatic politician. He was like a Bobby Kennedy. And the women ate it up. Sure, it's possible that some didn't like it. But they would have probably been embarrassed to admit they were bothered by it. He was basically a shoe-in for the Senate for the next 34 years.

Times they are a changing. Joe just didn't recognize or anyone else until recently that he got old. What worked for him no longer would.
 
BZZZZT! Wrong. It was NOT an issue when he ran as Obama's Veep. Nary a word was heard of his "creepy' behavior. For example, can you cite any protests you made in 2008 at his choice as Obama's running mate?

Just because it wasn't the news focus du jour doesn't mean it wasn't a problem.
 
With that you made acbytesla's point. You keep ragging on "creepy" but that's not a well defined behavior and others - maybe many others - don't find that his behavior falls into that category. But you reject him on that basis which is what acbytesla was warning against....
And many do. I'm not sure what makes you arbitrator of the polls here.

And I clearly posted it was ONE of MANY factors. You trying to change that to the one and only factor is your confirmation bias.
 
Just because it wasn't the news focus du jour doesn't mean it wasn't a problem.

I don't believe it was remotely a problem. That isn't to say that an occasional woman was uncomfortable with it. But let's be honest about that election. All the attention seem to go to Obama and Palin.
 
And many do. I'm not sure what makes you arbitrator of the polls here.

And I clearly posted it was ONE of MANY factors. You trying to change that to the one and only factor is your confirmation bias.

I'm curious Ginger. And please think about it. Would you have felt that way if he was a young good looking guy like Beto? Would that be creepy? I've seen shots taken from his campaign and women are all over him.

You see, I think you view it this way because of his age. What was once charming has evolved into creepy for you and others. The young bon vivant morphed into the dirty old man. Except like so many of us getting older, we still see ourselves as our young self.
 
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I'm curious Ginger. And please think about it. Would you have felt that way if he was young good looking guy like Beto? Would that be creepy? I've seen shots taken from his campaign and women are all over him.

You see, I think you view it this way because of his age. What was once charming has evolved into creepy for you and others. The young bon vivant morphed into the dirty old man. Except like so many of us getting older, we still see ourselves as our young self.

While I think a young man behaving as Biden does would look just as creepy, if not incredibly corny, you make a good point there is an ageist element there as well. The idea that old men having any sort of sex drive makes them sexual deviants, not that any of his actions necessarily come from that.

I just think he is trying really hard to look presentable (in his mind) but it comes off very wrong.
 
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Either the Democrats are perfectly flawless and must never be criticized or you're one of those wishy-washy "Both sides are the same" types that wants the BAD ORANGE MAN [Bernie who obviously isn't one of them :rolleyes:] to win. Those are the only two options.
ftfy
 
While I think a young man behaving as Biden does would look just as creepy, if not incredibly corny, you make a good point there is an ageist element there as well. The idea that old men having any sort of sex drive makes them sexual deviants, not that any of his actions necessarily come from that.

I just think he is trying really hard to look presentable (in his mind) but it comes off very wrong.

I don't. Or at least it wouldn't have been viewed that way.

I remember a skit that Eddie Murphy did about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas. His position was basically that Anita Hill wouldn't have been bothered by Thomas's sexual innuendo if he looked like Denzel Washington. Instead of being offended, she would have said, "Denzel, you so nasty"
 
Her own words whenever she's asked about it.

We approach the health care debates from a single perspective: maintaining the financial stability of families confronting illness or injury. The most obvious solution would be universal single-payer health care.
Source: Quotable Elizabeth Warren, by Frank Marshall, p.139 , Nov 18, 2014

I'd say that that's pretty clear about where her concern actually is and is pretty well in line with her actions.

If you ask someone who's actually going to fight for universal health care whether they plan to fight for universal health care, the answer is simply "yes", or maybe that with a small bit of embellishment like "yes; it's the only sane thing to do; it's the only sensible thing to do" or "yes, and the perfect program with which to do it is already running, so all it would take is taking away the restrictions on who can use it". But she never says anything like that.

Instead she keeps starting off with one of her lame "reframings" ("first of all, let's be clear about what the issue here is, and it's not really what you just asked about...") about how all Democrats really want the same thing and those whose actual answer to the question is "no" are really just the same as the ones whose answer is "yes", then wandering off into a ramble through a list of "ways to do it" (where "it" has been "reframed" as not actually universal health care anymore) in which every item on the list is nothing but a way to avoid universal health care and stick as close as possible to preserving the current travesty for as long as possible. It ends up so full of weasel-words that she's clearly just setting up her defense for later; a few years from now, when she's President and still hasn't actually done a thing on this issue, she'll be able to point back to these verbal meanderings and remind people that she never really even said she would do anything in particular.

Honestly, given the state of the Republicans, I wouldn't expect any such plan to actually have much of a chance to get passed before there is a supermajority of Dems in both chambers. A public option for Medicare, maybe, but even then, the Republicans would likely fight tooth and nail against it because they know that it would be popular and they've dug themselves into a hole.
 
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Maybe, maybe not. But even if it was mentioned, it didn't sink in. And I really believe it was successful campaigning for him. Biden won his first election and that was for the United States Senate at the age of 30 back in 1972. This was a young good looking gregarious charismatic politician. He was like a Bobby Kennedy. And the women ate it up. Sure, it's possible that some didn't like it. But they would have probably been embarrassed to admit they were bothered by it. He was basically a shoe-in for the Senate for the next 34 years.

Times they are a changing. Joe just didn't recognize or anyone else until recently that he got old. What worked for him no longer would.

Makes one wonder just when he started his touchy-feely behavior. Speculating: I think because people didn't see it as sexual advances (almost certainly true) it was one of those things no one talked about. Something embarrassing the people rolled their eyes at each other behind Biden's back.


Please tell me when this kind of behavior was either common or the norm, was not unusual, was admirable making Biden look like a caring sensitive man? And when did it change?
 
I don't believe it was remotely a problem. That isn't to say that an occasional woman was uncomfortable with it. But let's be honest about that election. All the attention seem to go to Obama and Palin.
A lot of attention went to Biden's gaffes. The same happened when Obama named Biden VP. People made comments like someone should shut Biden up because he has a habit of making gaffes.
 
I'm curious Ginger. And please think about it. Would you have felt that way if he was a young good looking guy like Beto? Would that be creepy? I've seen shots taken from his campaign and women are all over him.

You see, I think you view it this way because of his age. What was once charming has evolved into creepy for you and others. The young bon vivant morphed into the dirty old man. Except like so many of us getting older, we still see ourselves as our young self.
How nice of you to analyze my emotional responses for me. :rolleyes: You should have stopped at the first paragraph.

Could you not have said 'some women see Biden as a dirty old man' instead of projecting that crap on me?

You'll notice I did not say you didn't care about the behavior because you are a privileged white male. This is what I said:
Interesting. All those other things I agree are trivial. I wonder if some of us are simply more creeped out than others, as in women vs men?

It is a paternalistic condescending kind of creepy. I can see where some men might not see it that way. I wonder if any other females in the thread would weigh in.


I don't find Franken attractive, he's certainly not young and I would not want to kiss him. You may recall in context, I did not find his behavior creepy.
 
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