Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[Steve]

So two things.

1) I have worked with a number of Muslim women here in New Zealand, women that came here from across the Muslim world. Some wore a head scarf, others didn't, it seems to be a personal thing in countries such as New Zealand. I have also worked with Exclusive Brethren, and some the women wore head scarves all the time, others didn't. I have also been in a number of churches where many of the women were hats or coverings, and many didn't. The same thing seems to apply to them all, it's a choice that some follow and some don't.

2) I'm going to point put that by tradition in Maori society, that when they are meeting together the women sit at the back while the men sit at the front. Sop all this hand whinging over the Muslim population doing the same, especially by people outside of NZ, I seriously, and politely, suggest you go stick your head in a bucket, then go and fix your own countries before telling us what to do in ours.

In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.

 

[Max_mang]

In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.

Yes to the hi-lighted.

 

[Giz]

In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.

The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.

 

[trustbutverify]

The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.

That's a good point.

 

[Steve]

The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.

I agree that the motivation was good. The support for the Muslim community was and is a wonderful thing.

 

[smartcooky]

In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

That is just a complete and intentional misrepresentation what PW said, and you know it.

What the hell is this obsession you have trying to dictate how other cultures function? Just because they do things differently from how YOUR culture does things, or how YOU think they should be doing things, does not mean they are wrong and you are right.

In school assembly, kids are often made to girls on one side of the centre aisle, boys on the other side - OMG!!!!!! SEGREGATION!!!!!!!!!!!! They also have to sit seniors at the front and juniors at the back. OMG!!!!! AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps many of the women in Islam choose to do what they do? Even in our culture, some women choose to stay at home and be home-makers and child raisers; are they oppressed or second class citizens because they choose to do this? Others choose to have careers - THESE ARE THEIR RIGHTS!

Like Phantom Wolf, I personally know a number of Muslim families. The women are not at all how you seem to imagine them to be. They are not oppressed or downtrodden. Without exception, all the ones I have met are proud of the life they lead.

 

[The Atheist]

Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances.

You do realise we're talking about head scarves and not the burqa here?

The burqa, I agree, is a symbol of oppression. Head scarves, not so much. Lots of cultures use them, and I think it was already mentioned, several christian sects do as well. Christ, my mum used to wear one in the '60s and she was sure as hell not oppressed.

I love your attempt by any means at all to cast something that might appease your faux outrage.

Maybe a nice hot cup of tea will help? (since Douglas Adams was mentioned)

 

[The Atheist]

Meanwhile, getting back to the actual subject, the Tarrant's murder spree, I think I mentioned on about Page 1 that there would be an official inquiry into how our Keystone Cops Intelligence Agencies missed him.

Indeed there is, with a Royal Commission announced today.

(Has anyone noticed that every official announcement on the subject is accompanied by a proper sign language speaker, who signs simultaneously? Anyone know if any other countries do that? Inclusive, you see.)

And one for the conspiracy theorists, with every cop in the country currently being armed for an indefinite period.

 

[Max_mang]

In school assembly, kids are often made to girls on one side of the centre aisle, boys on the other side - OMG!!!!!! SEGREGATION!!!!!!!!!!!! They also have to sit seniors at the front and juniors at the back. OMG!!!!! AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!

The amount of straw in your bluster in stupefying.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps many of the women in Islam choose to do what they do?

Does it ever occur to you that many don't and that's the problem? And not having a choice isn't as black/white and easily identifiable as it may seem. (Though sometimes it is, see link below)

Like Phantom Wolf, I personally know a number of Muslim families. The women are not at all how you seem to imagine them to be. They are not oppressed or downtrodden. Without exception, all the ones I have met are proud of the life they lead.

Cool story. Here's another one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a6547aae7e4a

 

[smartcooky]

The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.

What a load of sanctimonious, ignorant claptrap!

I offer you the chance to educate yourself by reading this. I doubt you will; most people with your attitude don't have the courage to attempt to learn about "the other"... they just want to "point and screech"

https://unu.edu/publications/articles/confronting-prejudice-against-muslim-women-in-the-west.html

"...veils such as the hijab and burqa increasingly have been (deliberately) the subject of political debates, security concerns and media coverage. In this political discourse, it is Muslim women’s bodies that are subjected to regulation and political actions within Western societies in the name of national security, preserved national identities and gender equality (for example, France bans wearing a burqa or niqab in public spaces).

It is as if there is a hidden global consensus on a critical need to regulate Muslim women’s bodies either because these women are seemingly unable to distinguish what is good for themselves, or because they have been somehow brainwashed and cannot see their own suffering. In short, they are denying Muslim women’s agency — their ability to think and act independently. "​

 

[smartcooky]

Cool story. Here's another one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a6547aae7e4a

So what?

That is Iran, it has nothing to do with this country, but if you want to go that way

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...enalty-against-a-female-human-rights-activist

I would advise y'all to read past the headline... FOUR of those facing execution are men!

 

[smartcooky]

You do realise we're talking about head scarves and not the burqa here?

From how he describes it, I would say he doesn't know the difference, but I'll bet as soon as he reads your post, he will have scurried off to Google it, then will come back claiming he knew all along.

 

[banquetbear]

I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people.

...I look forward to you joining myself and other Social Justice Warriors while we unite to fight the patriarchy.

Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances.

Here's the thing about symbols though. Symbols aren't an objective thing. They are entirely up to your personal interpretation. They are dependent on (among many other things) your life experiences, on your personal biases, what media you consume and what your parents taught you.

What you saw in New Zealand was a symbol of "oppression": but what I saw (and I live here, so I saw the whole thing go down much closer than you) was a symbol of love, of compassion, of hope, it was a symbol of everything I want our society to be. I've never seen the country more united. And I've lived through the Springbok tour, the Rainbow Warrior, Moutoa Gardens. What happened here had the potential to divide the nation. But we have gotten stronger.

Symbols only have power if you give them that power.

And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.

And we are free to listen to your arguments, examine them with a critical eye, and disregard them.

 

[Giz]

What a load of sanctimonious, ignorant claptrap!

I offer you the chance to educate yourself by reading this. I doubt you will; most people with your attitude don't have the courage to attempt to learn about "the other"... they just want to "point and screech"

https://unu.edu/publications/articles/confronting-prejudice-against-muslim-women-in-the-west.html

"...veils such as the hijab and burqa increasingly have been (deliberately) the subject of political debates, security concerns and media coverage. In this political discourse, it is Muslim women’s bodies that are subjected to regulation and political actions within Western societies in the name of national security, preserved national identities and gender equality (for example, France bans wearing a burqa or niqab in public spaces).

It is as if there is a hidden global consensus on a critical need to regulate Muslim women’s bodies either because these women are seemingly unable to distinguish what is good for themselves, or because they have been somehow brainwashed and cannot see their own suffering. In short, they are denying Muslim women’s agency — their ability to think and act independently. "​

To treat your knee jerk name calling with respect it doesn’t deserve... there is a genuine debate to be had over whether Muslim women are best served by having burkas banned or not, with good points on both sides. What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).

 

[smartcooky]

To treat your knee jerk name calling with respect it doesn’t deserve... there is a genuine debate to be had over whether Muslim women are best served by having burkas banned or not, with good points on both sides. What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).

Translation: You have no interest in educating yourself.

Your loss.

 

[Giz]

Translation: You have no interest in educating yourself.

Your loss.

You realize that is projection, right? I offered a nuanced, balanced point of view and you (multiple times) just respond with name calling.

Maybe try skeptical debate sometime. Maybe on a forum or something?

 

[dann]

I don't know. I don’t need a ban on criticizing Islam. Why do you think that we need a ban on criticizing Islam?

That question was largely rhetorical and part of a larger idea but to answer it directly. We don't. Hopefully we don't but given the reactions in this thread to ideas like wearing a garment that identifies someone as a member of a religion as a symbol of that religion probably isn't the best idea ( see post 1524 for an example ) it's worth exploring the idea at least.

It's worth exploring what idea?! That nobody at all in this thread has suggested a ban on criticizing any religion? That's really not open for debate. All you need to do is realize that it's a fact.

Sure criticizing Islam is bigoted, duh, so is criticizing Christianity. Criticizing Christianity is "old hat" for us atheists but this criticizing Islam, now that seems to light people on fire and there's an awflu lot of willingness to toss those western progressive values under the but in order to not be seen as a "racist"

Why do you think that criticizing Islam is bigoted? Or that criticizing Christianity is? I don't see you guys actually criticizing Islam as a religion. For some reason you all seem to have grown quite fond of Christianity in recent years. Otherwise you wouldn't always use it in comparison to Islam to prove that the latter is not simply a religion, but a (or the) bad religion. No wonder you think that "criticizing Christianity is "old hat"". Old and forgotten. Nowadays, the old atheists resort to criticizing the Muslim infidels - not because they believe in a religion but because they've chosen the wrong religion, the one that suddenly seems to have achieved a monopoly on repressing women according to you guys.

All I see you do is 1) pretend that the rest of us want to ban your right to criticize religion and 2) pretend that we do what you pretend that we do in order "to not be seen as a "racist"". (As if you all didn't already sound like copies of Baylor ...)

Why are you so obsessed with what other people allegedly want to be seen as? Is it because you're afraid of not being seen as racists? Or is it because the anti-Muslim terrorist attack in New Zealand has made it so obvious what all your talk of "western progressive values" is actually about? (Apparently, Breivik didn't make that clear enough for you.)

By the way, the idea of wearing something that represents a persecuted group of people in order to show your solidarity with them isn't new at all. Not even when the symbol has religious connotations:

When the Germans ordered Jews in occupied Denmark to identify themselves by wearing armbands with yellow stars during World War II, King Christian X of Denmark and non-Jewish Danes thwarted the order by donning the armbands themselves.
A Star Is Borne (Snopes)

In many ways a beautiful story. "I'm Spartacus!" (But unfortunately just a myth.)

 

[dann]

What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).

When did headscarves become "a subservient garb"? When Christian women stopped wearing them? And is it because Christian women used to wear them that you consider them to be only mildly subservient?

 

[smartcooky]

You realize that is projection, right? I offered a nuanced, balanced point of view and you (multiple times) just respond with name calling.

Your point of view is about as balanced and nuanced as a brick thrown through a lounge window.


If its nuanced and balanced you're looking for, try reading dann's last two posts; its another potential learning opportuntity for y'all !

 

[Roboramma]

Your point of view is about as balanced and nuanced as a brick thrown through a lounge window.


If its nuanced and balanced you're looking for, try reading dann's last two posts; its another potential learning opportuntity for y'all !

I'm not seeing the point of this post. The assertion doesn't really help the conversation. Maybe if you explained in what way his view is lacking in nuance or balance that would be more helpful.