The Trump Presidency 13: The (James) Baker's Dozen

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Segnosaur said:
I agree that there are (often) overblown claims from the political right wing that "OMG Free speech is dead on campuses!". But incidents can happen that contribute to that particular narrative.

About a decade ago, Anne Coulter (whom I think is a horrible human being who should be shunned by anyone with a brain) was scheduled to give a speech at the University of Ottawa in Canada. The speech ended up getting cancelled, in part due to protests by students. Now, I'm not saying Coulter had anything valuable to say, but to me it did raise the issue: the right to protest is covered by free speech, but what if by exercising that right you affect the ability the free speech of others.
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Does Canada have a First Amendment?
 
erwinl said:
The question, which comes to my mind is the following.
Is this some kind of sabotage or prank by somebody in the Whitehouse?
Or is there something else in that report, which we won't notice, because we're focused on this funny piece?

My cynical me, suggests it is the second possibility.
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Well, supposedly the council of Economic Advisors is claiming that it was a deliberate attempt to "lighten up the report".

From: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/white-house-report-gets-loaded-with-fake-and-funny-intern-names.html
Thank you for noticing, our interns are indeed super heroes! We’ve thought so all along, but we knew it'd take a little more to get them the attention they deserve. They have made significant contributions to the Economic Report of the President and do so every day at CEA.
...
Who said economics has to be a dismal science?

I guess the question is whether you believe they added the names deliberately or whether they're just covering up a mistake. Under Obama, or even Bush, you might believe that they deliberately included some humor. But with Stubby McBonespurs (who made "alternative facts" a thing) its harder to give the benefit of the doubt.
 
slyjoe said:
I agree that there are (often) overblown claims from the political right wing that "OMG Free speech is dead on campuses!". But incidents can happen that contribute to that particular narrative.

About a decade ago, Anne Coulter (whom I think is a horrible human being who should be shunned by anyone with a brain) was scheduled to give a speech at the University of Ottawa in Canada. The speech ended up getting cancelled, in part due to protests by students. Now, I'm not saying Coulter had anything valuable to say, but to me it did raise the issue: the right to protest is covered by free speech, but what if by exercising that right you affect the ability the free speech of others.
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Does Canada have a First Amendment?
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As another poster pointed out, we do have a constitution that covers freedom of speech. But, we also have a clause in the constitution that says that freedoms can be limited if they might affect society in general.

Ultimately, it all comes down to what the supreme court says is acceptable speech.

However, this isn't exactly a "first amendment" issue... the problem isn't jut the government stepping in and saying "you can't speak", its sometimes the student.

Example: Student group X wants to hold a rally where they claim that Taco Bell makes the greatest burritos ever. Student group Y disagrees, claiming that Taco Bell is a blight on humanity, and they organize a counter-protest that overwhelms group X. Group X now can't speak. Should the government (or the university in this case) try to ensure group X can hold their rally, or does the right of group Y to disrupt the rally trump group X?
 
The government should respect and protect everyone's right to speak, not be heard.

"Being drowned out" isn't a thing that anyone can do anything about without the government stepping in to enforce some kind of Jabbian "Every side gets spokesperson and equal time" nonsense.
 
JoeMorgue said:
The government should respect and protect everyone's right to speak, not be heard.

"Being drowned out" isn't a thing that anyone can do anything about without the government stepping in to enforce some kind of Jabbian "Every side gets spokesperson and equal time" nonsense.
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Actually there are things the government can do in certain circumstances.

In the case of the previously mentioned Coulter speech, organizers had booked a hall for the speech. The university (or other authority in this case) could have said "The venue was legally booked in advance...as such the organizers have a right to set the rules during the time they have booked, and they do not wish to hear your counter-protests".

As long as access to potential venues is available in an unbiased manner.
 
Trump just tweeted 30 minutes ago on his official POTUS twitter account:

After 52 years it is time for the United States to fully recognize Israel’s Sovereignty over the Golan Heights, which is of critical strategic and security importance to the State of Israel and Regional Stability!
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Worm said:
John Snow was a 19th century doctor who is something of a hero of mine, for his groundbreaking work on epidemiology tracking a cholera outbreak through graphical cartography.
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Yes! Did you read The Ghost Map? Excellent book.
 
Segnosaur said:
A couple of interesting points in that article:

...it’s not clear how the policy set to be unveiled on Thursday would work.

To me it sounds like this may be an executive order that is so vague that it will probably end up being useless.

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos has said she doesn’t believe “government muscle” should be used to address campus free speech issues. “A solution won’t come from defunding an institution of learning,” she said last fall.

I think that says something if even DeVos (of the "I've never been in a public school" fame) doesn't agree with your approach.

I think the issue of free speech on campus is tricky... is free speech absolute, what level of counter protests are allowed, how to handle security issues when the potential for violent conflicts exists. If the U.S. had a competent president, there may be valid room for discussing these issues. Sadly, with Stubby McBonespurs in charge, such discussions will never take place.
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Thing about campus free speech is you always have a element who will say the most shocking things they can think of just for the sake of being shocking.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Sooner or later we're gonna need an investigation into why this administration needed so much coffee.
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Never been the US Military have you? It RUNS on Coffee.
The great naval Historian Samuel Eliot Morrison wrote: "THe US Navy could probably win a war without coffee..but it really would rather not have to try".
That goes for all branches of the armed services.
 
AnonyMoose said:
Trump just tweeted 30 minutes ago on his official POTUS twitter account:
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Assad is going to love that.......

Golan Heights are a difficult problem;They have become a symbol to Syria, but anyone who has visited Northren Israel will understand why Isreal does not want to give them back. Best solution will be to make is a neutral zone occupied by a peacekeeping force,with a ironclad guarantee they will not be withdrawn except by mutal agreemen of both sides.but I don't see that happening.
Irony is you would find a hard time finding a more totally worthless piece of land then the Golan Heighs;it never had more then a couple of small villages.it's has nothing of economic value.
 
I suspect his Golan Heights tweet was is an attempt to bait some Dems into an outraged response; he thinks that painting the Dems are strongly hostile to Israel is a winner for him.I hope the Dems do not take the bait.
 
Segnosaur said:
About a decade ago, Anne Coulter (whom I think is a horrible human being who should be shunned by anyone with a brain) was scheduled to give a speech at the University of Ottawa in Canada. The speech ended up getting cancelled, in part due to protests by students. Now, I'm not saying Coulter had anything valuable to say, but to me it did raise the issue: the right to protest is covered by free speech, but what if by exercising that right you affect the ability the free speech of others.
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Does this do that though? She is still free to share her views in any venue that wants her. Like all those protests limiting the free speech of Jeanine Pirro. Where is the outcry of that? That was an outrageous attack on conservative speech by Fox News.

Why is a college so different?
 
Foolmewunz said:
That's awesome! Someone's gonna lose a job over that.
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I stopped to read all the remaining posts before responding to yours, so this will sound like Monday-morn8ng quarterbacking. I was going to ask why you thought someone would lose his job over that. (I usually say “his or her” but this is the Trump administration).

For someone to lose a job, that means someone high up needs to admit a mistake was made.
 
dudalb said:
Assad is going to love that.......

Golan Heights are a difficult problem;They have become a symbol to Syria, but anyone who has visited Northren Israel will understand why Isreal does not want to give them back. Best solution will be to make is a neutral zone occupied by a peacekeeping force,with a ironclad guarantee they will not be withdrawn except by mutal agreemen of both sides.but I don't see that happening.
Irony is you would find a hard time finding a more totally worthless piece of land then the Golan Heighs;it never had more then a couple of small villages.it's has nothing of economic value.
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The hilites appear contradictory, but I know what you are getting at. Militarily strategic but not a nice place to live.
 
dudalb said:
Thing about campus free speech is you always have a element who will say the most shocking things they can think of just for the sake of being shocking.
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I've pointed to two examples that we've already seen - that Milo guy who instructed people at his talk to target a specific student (who did not attend the event) for harassment for being Trans, and Richard Spencer who is simply a Nazi wannabe. Both have had attendies shoot at people.

That Milo idiot was once chased off of UC-Berkley by anarchists who overwhelmed police, as he was supposedly planning to out specific students again. The only other incident Cheeto Benito is referring to is an incident where one non-student punched another non-student for passing out obnoxious flyers on campus - campus police aided in IDing and arresting the first man, and he is currently charged with 3 felonies.

I look forward to the Louis Farrakhan/NOI campus speaking tour, though. We can all sit and listen to him lecture on the savagery of "the white man", and why the Jews are "vermin". Unlike the above idiots, at least he provides a pretty disciplined security team, and doesn't have followers running around shooting people.
 
Segnosaur said:
Actually there are things the government can do in certain circumstances.

In the case of the previously mentioned Coulter speech, organizers had booked a hall for the speech. The university (or other authority in this case) could have said "The venue was legally booked in advance...as such the organizers have a right to set the rules during the time they have booked, and they do not wish to hear your counter-protests".
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Yep like how protesters need to be in fenced in areas blocks away from any public space near a republican convention. It would be wrong to let free speech happen outside of its government sanctions zones.

So taking the hint from this we can have enclosed free speech zones at all colleges for people like Coulter to speak where no one can see or hear them. That would be perfectly in accordance with the first amendment like how party conventions are run.
 
Mumbles said:
I've pointed to two examples that we've already seen - that Milo guy who instructed people at his talk to target a specific student (who did not attend the event) for harassment for being Trans, and Richard Spencer who is simply a Nazi wannabe. Both have had attendies shoot at people.
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Good to see the first and second amendments working well together then, we need to get more of that.
 
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