Trans Women are not Women

[cullennz]

I feel like I must see transgender chess boxing. It's not a thing yet, but it seems inevitable.

Shin kicking?

People come from the world over to watch the famous World Champs

 

[Roboramma]

Very much.

In video gaming it is referred to as "seal clubbing", purposely playing against people with lower skill to gain more wins. It is seen as a dishonorable tactic, and ruins the sense of fair play ranked matching gives.

Essentially trans women athletes are seal clubbing, most likely unintentionally, but the effect is the same.

In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from, but it applies to people who avoid getting promoted to a higher belt level in order to compete and win against people at that lower level.

People are weird, and like to win, even when the win is pretty meaningless. I know a guy who celebrates "winning" and shows off his medals when there was literally no one else in his division.

 

[Roboramma]

Government is not one of the ways a society decides to organise itself... And then you go on and admit that it is

Where did I either claim that "Government is not one of the ways a society decides to organise itself" or "admit" that it is?

Sporting organisations are one of the ways that society decides to organise itself. Is there something that you think I should conclude from that?

 

[Roboramma]

I don't think the argument was that the government isn't one. Sure it is. But it's not the only one. And I think the argument was merely whether the government is the best one to solve this particular problem.

Which I don't think is nonsense.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Beautiful, but still a league short of Andreja Pejich. Must be something in the water in Eastern Europe, because Stav Strashko is also amazing.

I looked them both up. On both of them you can still trace the male features in their faces. I find Blaire White to look completely feminine. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing. I just personally don't find it attractive when a trans woman still slightly looks like a man. But even if their faces looked completely feminine, I don't find their bodies attractive. I don't like the "bulimic supermodel" look in women.

 

[Ziggurat]

In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sandbag

 

[quadraginta]

In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from, but it applies to people who avoid getting promoted to a higher belt level in order to compete and win against people at that lower level.

People are weird, and like to win, even when the win is pretty meaningless. I know a guy who celebrates "winning" and shows off his medals when there was literally no one else in his division.

Made me look.

I got curious, because I've seen and heard the usage (basically, to deceive someone into thinking you are weaker than you are) in so many other situations.

It appears to go back at least to card playing in the 1940s as a slang term with that usage. Conjecture is that it is related to the term for someone who uses a sand filled cosh to render someone unconscious, "sandbagger", which can be traced to the 1800s.

 

[theprestige]

When the two parents disagree, how do you think the decision should be made?

To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their the arbitrator's own criteria, that didn't take the parents into account.

 

[Belz...]

To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their own criteria that didn't take the parents into account.

Ok so you have to find a grown-ass adult arbitrator, too.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'd like to return to the question of why if sex and gender are distinct and seperate, that

A) Assumes that everything that was separated by sex/gender with distinguishing which one has to assumed to have been separated by gender.

B) Why that takes the option of separating things by biological sex is no longer on the table.

If "Sex and Gender aren't the same thing" is key point here, then just going "Okay well we're separating sports by biological sex" would end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset about.

 

[The Atheist]

I looked them both up. On both of them you can still trace the male features in their faces. I find Blaire White to look completely feminine. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing. I just personally don't find it attractive when a trans woman still slightly looks like a man. But even if their faces looked completely feminine, I don't find their bodies attractive. I don't like the "bulimic supermodel" look in women.

Sounds fine to me - means there will be no arguments next time you, me, and those three are at a party.

 

[theprestige]

I'd like to return to the question of why if sex and gender are distinct and seperate, that

A) Assumes that everything that was separated by sex/gender with distinguishing which one has to assumed to have been separated by gender.

B) Why that takes the option of separating things by biological sex is no longer on the table.

If "Sex and Gender aren't the same thing" is key point here, then just going "Okay well we're separating sports by biological sex" would end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset about.

Sex and gender are closely coupled things. Gender is a social construct based on biological sex. Gender disphoria arises when your internal version of the construct doesn't match your biology. Treatment consists broadly of two things: Modifying your sex to more closely approximate your gender construct; and getting society to treat you according to your preferred gender construct, rather than the gender construct customarily assigned to your sex.

So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.

 

[Ziggurat]

So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.

There are limits to what you can do to force other people to treat you the way you want to be treated. If trans people can't be treated as the sex of their choice when it comes to sports, that may be unsatisfying for them, but overall, it's a perfectly acceptable outcome, and probably the best available one.

 

[Mycroft]

To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their the arbitrator's own criteria, that didn't take the parents into account.

What is a "workable compromise"?

 

[Mycroft]

I'm OK with doctors tipping the balance of a disagreement between parents, because I don't see a better option. But if the case involves parents disagreeing with doctors, I don't think the court should automatically side with the doctors. But that court absolutely would do so.

Let's make the question harder.

What if there were only one parent, and that parent was against transition on religious grounds believing that God never makes mistakes and that anyone who transitions from one gender to the other is basically saying God made a mistake in giving them the gender of their birth. This person essentially denies there is a condition called gender dysphoria.

The child really believes themselves to be the other gender and the doctors agree this is a genuine case of gender dysphoria.

 

[theprestige]

There are limits to what you can do to force other people to treat you the way you want to be treated. If trans people can't be treated as the sex of their choice when it comes to sports, that may be unsatisfying for them, but overall, it's a perfectly acceptable outcome, and probably the best available one.

This is basically where I'm at, but it's different from JoeMorgue's "separate by sex and everybody's happy" proposal.

Also, policies that leave a minority unhappy on the principle that they're a minority raise some thorny issues.

 

[theprestige]

What is a "workable compromise"?

Depends what the meaning of "is" is.

Are you asking a serious question? Issues of subjective values between two people are going to be specific to their values, their relationship, and the specific nature of the issue. A workable compromise is going to be whatever compromise works for those people in that particular circumstance.

 

[Ziggurat]

Also, policies that leave a minority unhappy on the principle that they're a minority raise some thorny issues.

I think there's a lot more to the justification than just trans women being a minority. But that is a relevant justification for something like sports, where popularity is a legitimately relevant consideration.

 

[Ziggurat]

Let's make the question harder.

What if there were only one parent, and that parent was against transition on [illegitimate gorunds]

The child really believes themselves to be the other gender and the doctors agree this is a genuine case of gender dysphoria.

The details of the parent's opposition to transition aren't actually relevant here, and only serves to entangle irrelevant considerations.

What's relevant is that there's a dispute between the three parties that you said should be involved in the decision. Courts will likely have to sort out such a disagreement, and will probably have to consider the validity of each party's position in such a dispute. And in such an event, the court should give full consideration to the position of the parent, even if it decides after that full consideration that their position is invalid or less persuasive than the position of the other parties in the dispute. The details of why their position is weak don't actually matter for the current discussion, and any of the parties in such a disagreement could potentially have a weak position, not just the parents.

But it still needs to be given full consideration, or else you aren't actually leaving the decision to the parents, child, and doctor.

Oh, and one more thing that didn't really come up because I haven't heard of any cases yet to test the second half of this, but we might in the future. If both parents and doctor think the child should not transition but the child thinks they should, then they should not transition. If both parents and doctor think the child should transition but the child thinks they should not, then they should still not transition. There should be an asymmetry here.

 

[JihadJane]

So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.

Biology trumps feelz.