Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[McHrozni]

That report is UK dated 15 June 2016, so will be 3½ days or less after event, and is reporting police lines of inquiry.

Exactly. It didn't take long for his alledged homophobia to become mainstream. To this day you have people claiming he did it due to his repressed homosexuality and not fanatical Islamic beliefs he expressed explicity and deliberately during the attack.

I don't really expect many allegation that these attackers were suppressed Muslims or something to that effect. It's possible I suppose, we'll see if you were right OK?

McHrozni

 

[PhantomWolf]

Can you lot take your derail elsewhere.

 

[Information Analyst]

The overwhelming majority still is.

Nice use of nowism to had-wave away all the separatist and secular political terrorism of the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Information Analyst]

Exactly. It didn't take long for his alledged homophobia to become mainstream.

Are you suggesting that the media should not have reported that the police said it was something they were investigating?

 

[PhantomWolf]

On the changing of gun laws, I'd like to compare with Aramoana.

In 1990 NZ's gun laws were very lax, gun licences were easy to get, there was no limits on what weapons you could have beyond no fully automatics, and no real checks on what people were buying. Thus when it was discovered that David Gray had bought himself a small arsenal of weapons, there was a need to look at and re-evaluate our gun laws, and when that was done they were made far, far stricter with major limitations on ownership and importation of certain weapons, and even requiring a licence to buy ammo and primers.

While there might be something that needs looking into in this case if the weapons were obtained legally (I doubt that they were) the laws themselves are pretty good, without being draconian. I don't believe that taking everyone's semi-automatic hunting rifles off them because of one bigoted extremist is a good idea, nor would it solve any actual issue.

 

[William Parcher]

The question will be where exactly the gun came from.

He had at least 6 long guns. Rifles and shotguns. Some were assault-style and some not. Some might be considered hunting or target guns. I saw them in the video. I saw no handguns.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well this is why I keep on saying that we need to know how he got the weapons. The issue with it being a stolen rifle is that those that have an "E" endorsement on their licences and can own one of these weapons also have very stringent regulations about how they are to be kept to prevent theft of them and have to report any thefts to the police, so again the laws are there.

The fact is that this appears to be a rogue case that no matter what firearms laws were in place could not have been prevented, knee jerking and making it harder for honest citizens to own guns by changing the laws in ways that wouldn't have prevented it is beyond stupid, it's like demanding that airlines refit all their planes with better seatbelts after terrorists use a stinger missile to shoot down at airliner. It might feel good, but it's useless.

I think the case may be made that legal semi-autos, no matter how well regulated and how strict the licensing, increases the risk of theft or other supply into the local black market. If the gun was ever in NZ legally, then that argument is going to be easy to make. If the weapon came overseas illegally, than that case will not be as easy to make.

We can theorize about hypotheticals all day long, but magazine fed, semi-auto rifles and/or pistols seems to be the weapon of choice for spree killers. Whether or not they could be as effective with a pump action shotgun, single action revolver, bolt action rifle, or any other such non-ban item is immaterial, because these are not the weapons spree killers prefer. I expect the body count would have been lower with a weapon that has a slower rate of fire due to not being magazine fed. Spree killing would still be possible, but perhaps not as severe. It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.

 

[Arcade22]

---

 

[Belz...]

The only thing I was "going on" about was terrorist threats, which I take very seriously regardless of "ideaology." It's frightening you and the rest ISF don't

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12377521#post12377521

Well that's certainly an "interesting" way of avoiding admitting to being wrong.

You're the one who brought up "anti-Trump", while this guy was (alledgedly) the opposite. Apparently ideology (not "ideaology") was important so long as it served your own.

So can we focus on the fact that a bunch of people were minding their own business when some ******* came along and shot them?

 

[William Parcher]

It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.

He used a pump action shotgun to shoot people on the sidewalk while he was driving. He shot out his own windshield and passenger side window as he was shooting pedestrians. He was doing this and driving simultaneously. He had multiple guns sitting waiting on his passenger seat. Instead of reloading he could just grab another loaded gun ready to shoot. I watched the video.

 

[Information Analyst]

On the changing of gun laws, I'd like to compare with Aramoana.

In 1990 NZ's gun laws were very lax, gun licences were easy to get, there was no limits on what weapons you could have beyond no fully automatics, and no real checks on what people were buying. Thus when it was discovered that David Gray had bought himself a small arsenal of weapons, there was a need to look at and re-evaluate our gun laws, and when that was done they were made far, far stricter with major limitations on ownership and importation of certain weapons, and even requiring a licence to buy ammo and primers.

While there might be something that needs looking into in this case if the weapons were obtained legally (I doubt that they were) the laws themselves are pretty good, without being draconian. I don't believe that taking everyone's semi-automatic hunting rifles off them because of one bigoted extremist is a good idea, nor would it solve any actual issue.

How the weapon/s used were obtained will probably be the deciding factor. It worth noting that in the UK, after Hungerford, all semi-auto rifles except in .22 LR were banned. There are no cosmetic restrictions, so straight-pull L1A1s, AR-15s, etc. are legal, albeit expensive. In comparison, NZ putting tighter restrictions on MSSAs after Aramoana - and subsequently tweaking the definition - seems more like a PR move than actually addressing the issue.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

He used a pump action shotgun to shoot people on the sidewalk while he was driving. He shot out his own windshield and passenger side window as he was shooting pedestrians. He was doing this and driving simultaneously. He had multiple guns sitting waiting on his passenger seat. Instead of reloading he could just grab another loaded gun ready to shoot. I watched the video.

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the majority of the deaths occurred inside the mosque, which precludes driving around a mobile armory inside a car. I haven't watched the video. Was the shooter carrying a bunch of rifles and switching off to avoid reloading while inside the mosque? That seems impractical compared to just using a magazine fed semi auto.

 

[BStrong]

Just heard.

My deepest condolences to the victims, their loved ones and the people on New Zealand.

 

[William Parcher]

I don't understand the existence of accomplices (others arrested). This guy acted alone in these killings.

In the video you ride with him for miles to get to the Al Noor mosque and then for miles driving away (presumably towards the other mosque). There is nobody but him. He has multiple gasoline cans in his station wagon. Maybe he also has bombs but I didn't see any.

I'm reading that multiple vehicles had IEDs attached? He did all of that? Maybe he took the numerous gas cans and placed them at nearby cars at the second mosque. At the Al Noor mosque he just drives away with all the cans.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think the case may be made that legal semi-autos, no matter how well regulated and how strict the licensing, increases the risk of theft or other supply into the local black market. If the gun was ever in NZ legally, then that argument is going to be easy to make. If the weapon came overseas illegally, than that case will not be as easy to make.

Gun owners in New Zealand have to keep their weapons in a properly gun safe with the ammo in a separate locked container. The police will check these prior to your obtaining a gun licence, and conduct annual checks to make sure that they are being maintained and used correctly.

While it is certainly not 100% against theft of weapons, the figures show that there are only about 550 firearms stolen each year, the vast majority being rifles and shotguns, pistols being a distant behind 3rd, and the rest making up about 2% of thefts. Put on top of that, that police recover about 3/5ths of these weapons, so it means that it is still somewhat hard to get a stolen gun. Certainly not impossible for a determined person with the right criminal connections, but harder then just buying one on the street corner.

We can theorize about hypotheticals all day long, but magazine fed, semi-auto rifles and/or pistols seems to be the weapon of choice for spree killers. Whether or not they could be as effective with a pump action shotgun, single action revolver, bolt action rifle, or any other such non-ban item is immaterial, because these are not the weapons spree killers prefer. I expect the body count would have been lower with a weapon that has a slower rate of fire due to not being magazine fed. Spree killing would still be possible, but perhaps not as severe. It's hard to imagine someone with a pump shotgun killing dozens of people before they can flee if they have to perform a cumbersome reload every 6-8 rounds.

Until we know exactly what weapons he used and where they were obtained, it's really pointless to making any speculations.

 

[McHrozni]

Nice use of nowism to had-wave away all the separatist and secular political terrorism of the 1970s and 1980s.

Two things here, first very little (if any) of that terrorism was anywhere near the massacres of dozens of people inspired directly by Islam we see on a weekly basis.

Yes, weekly. There was a broadly comparible attack by Islamic extremists carried out in India four weeks ago: 49 dead and 48 wounded.

https://www.deccanherald.com/nation...e-rams-into-bus-kills-CRPF-Jawans-718430.html

Second, unless you're an elf, 30 years should be long enough to be called "many years".

McHrozni

 

[PhantomWolf]

How the weapon/s used were obtained will probably be the deciding factor. It worth noting that in the UK, after Hungerford, all semi-auto rifles except in .22 LR were banned. There are no cosmetic restrictions, so straight-pull L1A1s, AR-15s, etc. are legal, albeit expensive. In comparison, NZ putting tighter restrictions on MSSAs after Aramoana - and subsequently tweaking the definition - seems more like a PR move than actually addressing the issue.

The NZ Police keep a list of acceptable weapons and their category, it's downloadable from their site, so it is a bit more then just a PR move.

I would also point out that aside from family incidents (we have had a few mass shootings of family members), we haven't had a serious mass shooting since Aramoana until today, and today was a operation that took 2 years of meticulous planning and preparation.

I very much doubt that our gun laws were at fault here.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So at 49 deaths this equals the Featherston Riot where Guards shot and killed 48 Japanese POWs in 1943, with a New Zealand Solider also dying. If more are added to the tally, this will be our worse ever massacre.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Seems it could have been far worse, but when he started shooting at the Linwood mosque, one of the people there managed to jump on him from behind and grab the gun forcing him to run. Had that not happened, then far more then the 10 who were killed there would likely have died. The guy that grabbed him and wrestled the gun away is a bonafide hero.

 

[William Parcher]

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the majority of the deaths occurred inside the mosque, which precludes driving around a mobile armory inside a car.

Nearly all shootings were inside the mosque. He shoots people on the sidewalk nearby both as he is on foot and also as he is driving away. He seemed to shoot at any visible human within a few blocks of the Al Noor mosque. Some may have had no relation to the mosque. He was standing outside the mosque shooting pedestrians a block away. Like a walking sniper.

I haven't watched the video. Was the shooter carrying a bunch of rifles and switching off to avoid reloading while inside the mosque? That seems impractical compared to just using a magazine fed semi auto.

He walked into the mosque with a single rifle and many high capacity banana clips. He was carrying so many clips that he dropped at least one on the floor (later picking it up and loading it). He would rapidly reload the rifle with a fresh clip. No doubt he was practiced.

His station wagon was parked next to the mosque. It was filled with many more guns and ammo all waiting to be used. At one point in the massacre, he walks out and goes back to the car. He switches rifles getting a new one from the cargo area. It looks like the same kind of rifle. So he also gets more clips as well and then goes back into the mosque with a fresh gun and more clips. Now he starts being very methodical about examining the piles of bodies looking for the still living which he then shoots multiple times. He did not want to leave a single person alive.