Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[McHrozni]

Utter bollocks.
The reason we know this was terrorism is because his manifesto was available pretty much straight away.

Florida shooter in 2016 called 911 during the attack to explain his motive - loyalty to ISIS. Despite this it was repeatedly alledged he killed 49 people because he was a closet homosexual, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

Same thing, basically - but the response has been markedly different.

For the record, I think this Christchurch group is recieving the proper treatment, I just think all other 'people' (peopleoids?) like him should too.

McHrozni

 

[3point14]

Don't be thinking I support the idea. I'm just suggesting what might well happen to him in jail.

Fair enough. Apologies.

 

[McHrozni]

How do you attack an idea?

The same way we attack other stupid if not quite as dangerous ideas (Flat Earth, Creationism, 9/11 Twoofers, etc): By showing the idea is wrong loudly, repeatedly, at all opportunities and with good evience to back it up.

The goal is not to eradicate the idea but to minimize the number of adherents to idea to the point of irrelevance. It will take at least a generation, I assure you.

Also, just to be clear, which idea is inciting them? I'd say that it's people holding ideas that are inciting them.

The manifesto I linked to seems to be about fear of Muslims, fear of Muslim domination, hatred of Muslims, desire of Western dominance and such. Basically the same motivators as with Islamic terrorists, just aimed at Muslims and not non-Muslims. They're both much the same.

McHrozni

 

[KDLarsen]

Citation?

Chris B.

added: I've not seen anything to suggest the shooting suspect is a Trump supporter.

Per the manifesto, he supports Trump "as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose."

Worryingly, at least from a somewhat local perspective, the perpetrator claims to have been in contact with Anders Breivik and recieved his blessing for the attack. That should set off some alarm bells in Norway, as I'd imagine Breivik is still having communications with the outside world screened.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think that is unfair. Many of those guns are shotguns (duck and goose shooting are popular seasonal sports here) and hunting rifles (again, hunting is a popular sports).

Guns such as handguns and MSSAs are supposed to be difficult to get. If I were a betting man, I would guess that most of his guns were either stolen, or smuggled in or both. I doubt he would have a firearms licence as he would likely fail the "fit and proper person" test.

I guess we are now going to see a whole raft of new firearms restrictions brought in. Every firearm will have to be on a register as well as every firearms owner. And I can tell you, unlike the USA, any new restrictions will have near unanimous support from all parties in the house, and will have the overwhelming support of New Zealanders, even gun owners like me.

Unless it is shown that there was a loophole that needs closing, I doubt that we'll see stronger gun laws. We have very strong ones, and the fact is that determined criminals are going to get illegal weapons and magazines because they are determined to get them, and no stronger law is going to prevent it. We might need to crack down more in importation and doing a better job of making sure of what comes in, but until we know how he got hold of them, I think it's all speculation.

 

[uke2se]

The same way we attack other stupid if not quite as dangerous ideas (Flat Earth, Creationism, 9/11 Twoofers, etc): By showing the idea is wrong loudly, repeatedly, at all opportunities and with good evience to back it up.

The goal is not to eradicate the idea but to minimize the number of adherents to idea to the point of irrelevance. It will take at least a generation, I assure you.



The manifesto I linked to seems to be about fear of Muslims, fear of Muslim domination, hatred of Muslims, desire of Western dominance and such. Basically the same motivators as with Islamic terrorists, just aimed at Muslims and not non-Muslims. They're both much the same.

McHrozni

So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror. Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?

 

[PhantomWolf]

So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror. Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?

It's easier to order drone strikes against "dirty foreigners" rather than your neighbours.

 

[McHrozni]

So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror.

We should, I already do.

Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?

No, anti-terror operations can stay if they're effective. Of course we can argue ad nauseam whether or not they are effective or if they just create more terrorists in the end. This is not my intent, if the said operations are effective they should stay, if not they should be scaled back (or ended). I'm not making a claim towards either at this point.

The same should apply to other, similar doctrines - such as radical white nationalism. If there are anti-terror operations that would moderate or end it they should be considered at least.

McHrozni

 

[Ryokan]

Worryingly, at least from a somewhat local perspective, the perpetrator claims to have been in contact with Anders Breivik and recieved his blessing for the attack. That should set off some alarm bells in Norway, as I'd imagine Breivik is still having communications with the outside world screened.

It's most likely a lie. As you imagine, all his communication is screened. His lawyer has been on the news saying that there has been no communication.

 

[McHrozni]

It's easier to order drone strikes against "dirty foreigners" rather than your neighbours.

Yup.

It's also easier to send a SWAT team there to arrest them in lieu of drone strikes. This is a significantly perferable alternative, for countless reasons. We also do that to Islamic terrorists at home, I suggest we don't change tack just because these guys believe some other nonesense with similar results.

But if they're taking cover in a third country, sheltered by an ineffective or compilant government and a sympathetic populace, drone strikes could well be an effective way to deal with them. They should be considered, at least as long as drone strikes are used against Islamic extremists.

McHrozni

 

[lionking]

It took Port Arthur for Australia to get serious about gun control and since then we have not had a firearm mass murder. This event will lead to the same outcome in NZ I believe (I am going on comments in this thread about lax gun laws and the wikipedia article which states semi-automatics are easy to obtain).

Semi-automatics and automatics should be banned in NZ and gun registries established. It would be the only good thing which could come out of this tragedy.

 

[Tolls]

Florida shooter in 2016 called 911 during the attack to explain his motive - loyalty to ISIS. Despite this it was repeatedly alledged he killed 49 people because he was a closet homosexual, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

Same thing, basically - but the response has been markedly different.

No it hasn't.

I remember the Florida shootings and it was classed as terrorism in the news.
Much as this is now.

 

[McHrozni]

No it hasn't.

I remember the Florida shootings and it was classed as terrorism in the news.
Much as this is now.

I'm reffering to stuff like this:

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/134265/omar-mateen-self-hating-gay-man
http://i.imgur.com/Ywwjlio.png

And others. His alledged homosexuality (never proven, eventually disproven) featured prominently on this forum as evidence it wasn't about Islam at all. Some proponents of that theory now even disawow they ever said so.

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

I'm reffering to stuff like this:

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/134265/omar-mateen-self-hating-gay-man
http://i.imgur.com/Ywwjlio.png

And others. His alledged homosexuality (never proven, eventually disproven) featured prominently on this forum as evidence it wasn't about Islam at all. Some proponents of that theory now even disawow they ever said so.

McHrozni

That's some guy worrying about the tweets of some girls. That's not the media nor anyone important.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It took Port Arthur for Australia to get serious about gun control and since then we have not had a firearm mass murder. This event will lead to the same outcome in NZ I believe (I am going on comments in this thread about lax gun laws and the wikipedia article which states semi-automatics are easy to obtain).

Semi-automatics and automatics should be banned in NZ and gun registries established. It would be the only good thing which could come out of this tragedy.

Military Style Semi Automatics such as the AR-15 require a special endorsement on your Gun Licence because they are an E class category. You need to have a valid reason for obtaining one.

Long rifle hunting semi-automatics are easier to get, but you still need a valid NZ Gun Licence which means that you need to meet certain upstanding citizen requirements. I doubt that this guy meet those requirements.

Automatics are restricted to military and police.

Until we know how he got the weapons there is no reason to consider changing our laws.

 

[Tolls]

I'm reffering to stuff like this:

And?
That's all post the event.
We are currently less than 12 hours into this and you expect to see the post-event analysis already?

You are not comparing like with like.

 

[McHrozni]

And?
That's all post the event.
We are currently less than 12 hours into this and you expect to see the post-event analysis already?

I'm not quite sure what you're reffering to. Years after the Orlando massacre rumors he was a closet homosexual who vented his frustration rather than an Islamic terrorist are still alive and well (albeit bruised by the overwhelming nature of evidence to the contrary).

Here I don't really see anyone doubting the motive, even though available evidence is similar. Some might cheer it, but not doubt it.

You are not comparing like with like.

Yeah. I'm comparing a well proven CT that arose within hours of the event and hasn't died after years of evidence to the contrary with basically nothing, because no such nonesense arose in the first place. I'm complaing the two events recieve different alternative explanations and you're claiming ... what exactly?

That they shouldn't be compared because the gay CT in Orlando is many years old? That's the point, yes.

McHrozni

 

[TofuFighter]

That's it!
I'm attacking my brothers and sister in Melbourne!

Just keep a close eye on your wallet.

 

[lionking]

Until we know how he got the weapons there is no reason to consider changing our laws.

I don’t agree with this. However the guns used were obtained, Australia has proven that you can eliminate mass shootings by making semi-automatics almost impossible to obtain. PM Howard stared down the gun enthusiasts and won. I hope your PM can do the same.

Spare me the “right to own whatever gun we want” arguments.

 

[McHrozni]

That's some guy worrying about the tweets of some girls.

Of those four tweets one might qualify as a girl, the other is a woman. One is a community organization and one is I don't know what, something. A person, most like.

Plus one media organization.

That's not the media nor anyone important.

If you have a problem with those I can find more important media outlets.

BBC is an important media organization, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693

Investigators are still trying to establish what led a 29-year-old security guard from Florida to murder 49 people and injure dozens more as they partied in popular gay nightclub Pulse.

He called 911 to tell his motive was loyatly to ISIS, it doesn't seem that hard to "establish motive". He said so himself and yet his alledged sexuality (later debunked) recieved significant coverage.

I doubt this - or anything else - will change your mind, which is exactly what I'm reffering to in my 'whining'.

McHrozni