Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Scorpion]

My point was that the title of the book and Dennet's use of the word theory in the preface of it are not, by definition, contradictory, as Scorpion seems to believe.

I have done a little more work on my bit of a page. I have to repost the whole thing as its too late to edit the above.


Page two of my book.

Psychology might be said to be less than a science, because it deals with consciousness which is not understood. At this time nobody knows how we are conscious, unless you take the title of Daniel Dennett's book 'consciousness explained' as literal. But in fact Dennett says in line six of the preface that his ideas are only a theory. He says "I think I can sketch an outline of the solution, a theory of consciousness that gives answers [or shows how to find the answers]". Here Dennett is clearly saying he does not yet think he has the answers.
He dismissed Descartes dualism theory that the mind is separate from the body in a couple of sentences, as not being worthy of further consideration. Therefore I feel equally dismissive of Dennett's book and it can be ignored, because it was his hubris made him claim false status for what is nothing but another failed theory. There are other new theories of mind that also fail to truly explain consciousness. I maintain that Descartes dualism is in fact the truth, and mind is different in its nature to the matter of the brain. Thought is nebulous and non physical whereas the brain is made of matter that resembles porridge. If thought was caused by chemical and electrical actions I do not believe we would have the mental capacity to think freely, and therefore not be able to consider such concepts. The Descartes concept is we are 'the ghost in the machine', although Descartes did not invent the phrase, it was coined by a twentieth century critic of his work.
Dennett has his critics like David Chalmers and Thomas Nagel who have said he simply ignores the subjective aspect of consciousness. With the result his book has been nicknamed 'consciousness explained away'

 

[Scorpion]

My point was that the title of the book and Dennet's use of the word theory in the preface of it are not, by definition, contradictory, as Scorpion seems to believe.

I tweeted him saying he should have called his book, 'consciousness explored' Then I could have ignored it.

 

[Scorpion]

In around 1971 I began attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London. I regularly attended trance lectures by three mediums. There was Ursula Roberts, and Ivy Northage , and another medium whos name I cannot recall. On one occasion I was at a lecture by Ivy Northage and at the end of the lecture I was sitting below her in the front row of the audience, and someone was standing in the aisle between me and the medium. I thought "God bless you" to the medium. She could not see me because of the person standing in the way, but she suddenly leant sideways and looked down at me with her eyes still tightly closed. I was quite surprised but assumed the medium was still in a trance, and the spirit guide that had supposedly been speaking through her could see me even though her eyes were shut. It also seemed to me she must have read my mind with telepathy. Of course that is an assumption, and might not seem likely to skeptics. But you had to be there and experience this event to believe in it.

 

[steenkh]

Of course that is an assumption, and might not seem likely to skeptics.

You got that one right.

But you had to be there and experience this event to believe in it.

You thought "God bless you", and you think she looked at you. I have difficulty understanding why even you believe this was a case of mind reading.

 

[Pixel42]

Personally I do not consider normal everyday occurrences evidence of telepathy even when I am there to experience them.

 

[Scorpion]

You got that one right.


You thought "God bless you", and you think she looked at you. I have difficulty understanding why even you believe this was a case of mind reading.

You had to be there. As soon as I thought "God bless you" she leant over sideways and looked down at me, and her eyes were still shut.

 

[Scorpion]

I have told this story before, but I am now writing an account of it for my book.

In the 1970's I lived in a bed sitting room in north London, and I had a friend who lived down the road from me named Bob Skinner. One night I brought two budgerigars in a cage, and when I got home I put them on the table, then I started thinking, I only have one room and I won't be able to sleep for their noise. I worked myself up into a state about it, and was reaching crisis point where I was having a bit of a breakdown. The doorbell rang but I was too upset to answer it, but a minute later my friend burst into the room with a look of concern on his face and said "are you alright" He had got my landlady to let him in and come up to my room, because he sensed I was in trouble from down the road. He told me he had sensed it, and run up the road to help me. He talked me down, and told me all I had to do was cover the birds over and they would go to sleep. The point being that somehow he knew I was in trouble. He was not in the habit of bursting in on me, but on this occasion he did, and saved me from a mental crisis I could not deal with.
To me this was another piece of evidence of the existence of telepathy.

 

[Crossbow]

In around 1971 I began attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London. I regularly attended trance lectures by three mediums. There was Ursula Roberts, and Ivy Northage , and another medium whos name I cannot recall. On one occasion I was at a lecture by Ivy Northage and at the end of the lecture I was sitting below her in the front row of the audience, and someone was standing in the aisle between me and the medium. I thought "God bless you" to the medium. She could not see me because of the person standing in the way, but she suddenly leant sideways and looked down at me with her eyes still tightly closed. I was quite surprised but assumed the medium was still in a trance, and the spirit guide that had supposedly been speaking through her could see me even though her eyes were shut. It also seemed to me she must have read my mind with telepathy. Of course that is an assumption, and might not seem likely to skeptics. But you had to be there and experience this event to believe in it.

So please clarify, just who is talking to these dead people?

Are you talking to dead people?

Is your medium talking to dead people?

Are you and your medium talking to dead people?

 

[Scorpion]

So please clarify, just who is talking to these dead people?

Are you talking to dead people?

Is your medium talking to dead people?

Are you and your medium talking to dead people?

In the case of the post you quote, the medium Ivy Northage was purportedly taken in trance by a spirit that then spoke through her using her mouth.

I have had the opportunity to ask questions of trance mediums, and therefore possibly I was asking questions of spirits that were using the mediums.

Most mediums are not trance mediums, but claim to be able to either see and hear or feel spirits. The mediums that say they can hear spirits can relate messages from the spirit world.

I personally do not talk to dead people, however I claim to have occasionally heard spirit voices speak directly into my head.

 

[Crossbow]

In the case of the post you quote, the medium Ivy Northage was purportedly taken in trance by a spirit that then spoke through her using her mouth.

I have had the opportunity to ask questions of trance mediums, and therefore possibly I was asking questions of spirits that were using the mediums.

Most mediums are not trance mediums, but claim to be able to either see and hear or feel spirits. The mediums that say they can hear spirits can relate messages from the spirit world.

I personally do not talk to dead people, however I claim to have occasionally heard spirit voices speak directly into my head.

OK then.

 

[steenkh]

You had to be there. As soon as I thought "God bless you" she leant over sideways and looked down at me, and her eyes were still shut.

The remarkable aspect of this event is your interpretation of it.

 

[Thor 2]

You had to be there. As soon as I thought "God bless you" she leant over sideways and looked down at me, and her eyes were still shut.

The remarkable aspect of this event is your interpretation of it.

Looking at you with shut eyes, now that's a neat trick.

Yes the interpretation is the essence I suspect also.

 

[Crossbow]

The remarkable aspect of this event is your interpretation of it.

Looking at you with shut eyes, now that's a neat trick.

Yes the interpretation is the essence I suspect also.

Pardon me for jumping in, but I would like to point out an important detail.

One should be advised that 'Scorpion' also has voices inside of his head which do confirm his interpretation of this events like this.

Therefore, 'Scorpion' does believe that his interpretation of an event like this is indeed the correct interpretation of events like this.

 

[steenkh]

One should be advised that 'Scorpion' also has voices inside of his head which do confirm his interpretation of this events like this.

Therefore, 'Scorpion' does believe that his interpretation of an event like this is indeed the correct interpretation of events like this.

You mean, his interpretation has democratically been determined to be right by counting the votes of the voices in his head, and his reason?

 

[Crossbow]

You mean, his interpretation has democratically been determined to be right by counting the votes of the voices in his head, and his reason?

Sorry, but I do not know the exact mechanism that 'Scorpion' uses to validate those voices which are in his head, so you will have to ask him about that.

However, I do know that 'Scorpion' does claim to have voices in his head which do occasionally validate certain things for him.

His exact statement is on the issue is here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12631248#post12631248

 

[Scorpion]

That actually raises more questions.
Are you saying that mediums are unhealthy, and somehow at risk?
Why don't mediums give evidence of survival, instead of saying things like 'you were painting a blue and white picture'?
Why are mediums so often wrong about survival or death?
What exactly is the physical, biological difference between a psychic and a non-psychic? What do most people lack?
Why don't the spirits expose fraudulent mediums?

Yes, some mediums are vulnerable, and suffer with their nerves. Their etheric bodies are looser than normal, and they can have a nervous illness if they get emotionally run down.

Mediums often do give evidence of survival. I had some messages from my grandparents and in one my grandfather told the medium the circumstance of his death to give me evidence it was him.

I don't know about why mediums are often wrong, you would have to give examples.

I don't think there are any physical differences between mediums and other people, its all about how sensitive they are to psychic energy.


I have no idea why spirits don't expose fake mediums.

 

[philkensebben]

I find this thread just sad.

You need help with your mental health Scorpion. Please seek it.

 

[Scorpion]

I find this thread just sad.

You need help with your mental health Scorpion. Please seek it.

Oh ! do leave off. I wasted my breath on psychiatrists for years. They don't believe a word I have said just like you. I worked out my own destiny, and I am sure there is a spirit world.

 

[Crossbow]

Oh ! do leave off. I wasted my breath on psychiatrists for years. They don't believe a word I have said just like you. I worked out my own destiny, and I am sure there is a spirit world.

That is just about the answer that I expected to get from 'Scorpion'.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I have told this story before, but I am now writing an account of it for my book.

In the 1970's I lived in a bed sitting room in north London, and I had a friend who lived down the road from me named Bob Skinner. One night I brought two budgerigars in a cage, and when I got home I put them on the table, then I started thinking, I only have one room and I won't be able to sleep for their noise. I worked myself up into a state about it, and was reaching crisis point where I was having a bit of a breakdown. The doorbell rang but I was too upset to answer it, but a minute later my friend burst into the room with a look of concern on his face and said "are you alright" He had got my landlady to let him in and come up to my room, because he sensed I was in trouble from down the road. He told me he had sensed it, and run up the road to help me. He talked me down, and told me all I had to do was cover the birds over and they would go to sleep. The point being that somehow he knew I was in trouble. He was not in the habit of bursting in on me, but on this occasion he did, and saved me from a mental crisis I could not deal with.
To me this was another piece of evidence of the existence of telepathy. schizophrenia.