Trans Women are not Women

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sadhatter said:
No it segregated bio males from bio females.
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Which will be seen as denying the "woman-ness" of trans-women and start the whole "So you're saying trans-women aren't real women?" thing again and we're right back at square one with only the exact same paths to go down again.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Which will be seen as denying the "woman-ness" of trans-women and start the whole "So you're saying trans-women aren't real women?" thing again and we're right back at square one with only the exact same paths to go down again.
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But we are not, if sex and gender are 2 separate things, then we can sort by either. If they are the same, then we encounter the issue of the point being resolved already.

They can be all the woman they want, it's not women's boxing is bio female boxing.

The only counter to the point is by claiming sex and gender are the same.
 
sadhatter said:
No it segregated bio males from bio females.
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Gender is a social construct coupled to a biological fact. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder in which a person's sense of their own gender does not comport with their biological fact. The best treatment seems to be a combination of:

- Making an effort to adjust the patient's biological fact to more closely approximate their sense of gender

- Making an effort to adjust the social construct to accommodate their sense of gender regardless of their biological facts.

A transwoman competes as a woman not because she wants to test herself against bio-women (at least, one hopes not - punching down like that would be mean-spiritied and uncompetitive), but because she wants to be seen as and treated as a biological woman.

Which brings us right back to the title and topic of the thread: Transwomen are not women. Or are they?

How do you uphold principles of inclusivity and tolerance? How do you honor and support a transsexual's self-image and social identity, if at the same time you mark out a huge area of entertainment and commerce? If, within that area, you say, "self-identify however you want, but you're not really a bio-woman, we know it, you know it, and now you have admit it, and go compete with the bio-men"?

And if sport doesn't have to honor a transwoman's self-identity, then why does anyone else? Men's and women's bathrooms? Transgenders just use their bio-gendered bathroom. Problem solved! That's what the social conservatives have been saying all along anyway. And the TERFs. And, soon, the entire world of competitive sports. Either that, or the entire world of competitive sports will have no women in it at all. Just a category dominated by men, and a category dominated by transwomen.

My point being, you can't just solve the problem of sport along biological lines in a vacuum. There's a larger cultural shift in progress here. How we treat transgenders in sports will have echoes in other areas of society.
 
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sadhatter said:
How is the solution not re just re brand it bio male and bio female sports?
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Haven't you heard? If a trans woman has a penis, it's a biologically female penis.

I really don't want to Google the link to where I saw that argument put forward, but it wasn't intended as a joke.
 
theprestige said:
My point being, you can't just solve the problem of sport along biological lines in a vacuum. There's a larger cultural shift in progress here. How we treat transgenders in sports will have echoes in other areas of society.
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Sure. But we're knocking down Chesterton's fences left and right with no idea what's going to happen. It won't be all good.
 
Ziggurat said:
Sure. But we're knocking down Chesterton's fences left and right with no idea what's going to happen. It won't be all good.
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For sure. Not a day goes by that I don't pour one out for all the fences lost in the culture wars.

I'm trying to make a good-faith attempt at debate, starting from the premise that transgendered people are human beings who deserve humane treatment and basic respect for their problems and their solutions.

I don't see how that humanitarian view can be reconciled with the problem of gender in competitive sport. I'm just hoping that the debate can proceed along those lines - how to reconcile the issue of humane treatment of transsexuals with the issue of fair competition in professional sport.

I don't see how luchog's proposal will solve this problem. I hope he'll return to this thread to explain a bit more about what he has in mind. Hopefully also he can bring some more insights about the issue of transwomen in competitive sports.
 
Ziggurat said:
Haven't you heard? If a trans woman has a penis, it's a biologically female penis.

I really don't want to Google the link to where I saw that argument put forward, but it wasn't intended as a joke.
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Well, if nothing else it's consistent; it follows directly from that person's ideology.
 
Belz... said:
Well, if nothing else it's consistent; it follows directly from that person's ideology.
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And that's kind of the bottom line, I think. The reduction to the absurd is intended to refute a false line of reasoning. When confronted with the choice of:
- biologically female penises; or
- something that isn't absurd;

The result is supposed to be that you choose something that isn't absurd. But what sometimes ends up happening is that people double down on the absurd thing rather than give up their ideology.

And that's why I'm a social conservative. I want to keep the rate of progress slow enough that the absurdists can't rush into power before the rest of us fully realize how ******* insane they are; and so that we don't rush into too much harm before we realize that what we thought was progress really wasn't.

And that's why I'll probably always be a counter-revolutionary.
 
The IOC has been allowing transgender athletes since 2004, depending on their hormonal status. Have the Olympics since then been won by transgender athletes? All of the contests? Any of the contests?

Maybe they're not overrunning the sports world after all.
 
sadhatter said:
Sports point is not to decide who is what sex,
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Well it must be at least part of the point because that's what is being done currently

it is fair competition.
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No, it's about competition within an arbitrary set of rules.

You might as well say tampons should change design because they remind trans people they are different.
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The design of tampons isn't arbitrary.
 
sadhatter said:
They would complain if John mackinrow (sp?) Joined the league and beat her. Because he was born with many advantages due to his biology.
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Williams was born with biological advantages over other women as well. And John McEnroe is not a transwoman. He is in his late 50s though so Serena might give him a good game!
 
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