2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker

[dudalb]

I think he definitely has an issue worth getting an airing. At least he seems to have a genuine interest in policy unlike some others who come up with ideas just to get noticed.

It's an issue, but he can't come off like a luddite.That would be suicidal.

 

[acbytesla]

Meaningless discussion. You know that any talk of reperatations will die away as the election gets closer.
Harris will redefine reperatations to the point where it becomes meaningless.
It's the same old routine: early on appeal to the more extreme elements in your party to get their support in the primaries, and then move as rapidly to the center as possible in the general election and hope people forget all the extreme things you said in the primary season.

You're probably right.

My point was simply to say that reparations cannot be justifiably referred to as "freebies". One cannot say a great crime wasn't committed against people of African descent in this country. It just cannot be done by an intellectually honest person.

 

[portlandatheist]

Donated $5 to Andrew Yang. I haven't decided who my preferred candidate is yet as it's way too early for that. I do want to see him included in the debates though

I donated to Yang also and for the same reason, I'm really hoping he at least makes the debates

 

[dudalb]

You're probably right.

My point was simply to say that reparations cannot be justifiably referred to as "freebies". One cannot say a great crime wasn't committed against people of African descent in this country. It just cannot be done by an intellectually honest person.

I agree that freebies was a bad term.
I am not arguing that the treatment of Africans is the huge black mark in our history (with the treatment of Native Americans being #2) but I have a real problem with holding people responsible for others people's actions...particulary with, in the case of slavery, the last slave owner died a long,long time ago.

 

[acbytesla]

Hell,forget the British. Our ancestors ( I'm of Irish descent also) were probably discriminated against in the United States as well (No Irish Need Apply,etc). I want my damn reparation money from the US!

Oh please. I respect your opinion dudalb. But are you seriously going to compare the discrimination against Irish immigrants and the institutional discrimination levied against people of color? Sorry, it doesn't. Not even in the same planet, let alone the same ball park.

The home I bought in Seattle ...******* liberal bastion had a covenant that restricted the sale of the home so it could not be sold to people of color. Totally unenforceable when I bought the home, but the home was built 75 years AFTER the Civil War. And there were neighborhoods all over the country with similar real estate covenants.

Racism and discrimination against people of color wasn't just bigotry from individuals, it was codified and enforced by private clubs, corporations, unions, municipalities, county, state and the Federal governments until after WW2. It wasn't until 1954 Plessy v Ferguson was overturned and the "separate, but unequal" law of the land was nullified. And that was just the first real shot to ending discrimination. Jim Crow laws were still prevalent throughout the South.

I just don't think you've thought about this with the consideration required.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree that freebies was a bad term.
I am not arguing that the treatment of Africans is the huge black mark in our history (with the treatment of Native Americans being #2) but I have a real problem with holding people responsible for others people's actions...particulary with, in the case of slavery, the last slave owner died a long,long time ago.

We're not talking about people being responsible for the actions of other people. We're talking about the institution (the US government) being responsible for its actions.

 

[Brainster]

You're probably right.

My point was simply to say that reparations cannot be justifiably referred to as "freebies".

It's giving something of value away for nothing in return (and I'm sorry but somebody's great-great-great grandfather's unpaid labor doesn't count). I call that a freebie.

One cannot say a great crime wasn't committed against people of African descent in this country. It just cannot be done by an intellectually honest person.

Strawman. Nobody is saying that. Shall we find all the people against whom a great crime was committed and pay them reparations as well? Warren wants to consider Native Americans; how about gays and lesbians? And transgender people? Women didn't even have the right to vote until a hundred years ago and were barred entry to many colleges, universities and jobs. Dudalb mentioned the Irish Need Not Apply signs. Italians and Polish people suffered the slings and arrows of ethnic humor (and where ethnic humor is, you can bet discrimination is there as well). And the Jews have their own beefs.

 

[Travis]

Oh, I'm glad to see that the unhinged attacks on Kamala are coming straight out of a sewer filled gutter.

 

[angrysoba]

It's an issue, but he can't come off like a luddite.That would be suicidal.

He doesn’t come off like a Luddite at all. He is in favor of universal basic income.

 

[acbytesla]

It's giving something of value away for nothing in return (and I'm sorry but somebody's great-great-great grandfather's unpaid labor doesn't count). I call that a freebie.

Paying a debt is not giving anything away and just because you have managed to avoid paying it for a long time doesn't make it a freebie when you finally do.

Strawman. Nobody is saying that. Shall we find all the people against whom a great crime was committed and pay them reparations as well? Warren wants to consider Native Americans; how about gays and lesbians? And transgender people? Women didn't even have the right to vote until a hundred years ago and were barred entry to many colleges, universities and jobs. Dudalb mentioned the Irish Need Not Apply signs. Italians and Polish people suffered the slings and arrows of ethnic humor (and where ethnic humor is, you can bet discrimination is there as well). And the Jews have their own beefs.

That a crime was committed by the governments of the United States does NOT make it a strawman at all.

As for other aggrieved minorities that were discriminated against. Perhaps, we should compensate them. But for most of them, the crimes against them hardly compares.

 

[Brainster]

Paying a debt is not giving anything away and just because you have managed to avoid paying it for a long time doesn't make it a freebie when you finally do.

Who owes the debt? The concept of reparations seems to be based on the idea that black families would have all this wealth if their ancestors had been paid. Well, it's pretty obvious who has that wealth--the descendants of slave-owners. Let's get them to pay.

That a crime was committed by the governments of the United States does NOT make it a strawman at all.

The strawman was when you said this:

One cannot say a great crime wasn't committed against people of African descent in this country. It just cannot be done by an intellectually honest person.

You have completely mischaracterised the argument that reparations opponents are making. Nobody is denying that slavery was a great crime.

But I do like that neat little sleight of hand there with the phrase "governments of the United States." In fact it was the individual state governments that allowed the great crime to occur.

As for other aggrieved minorities that were discriminated against. Perhaps, we should compensate them. But for most of them, the crimes against them hardly compares.

When it comes to the slavery part, I certainly agree. But remember you are the one who said reparations aren't solely for slavery, but for the years of discrimination that followed. In that part they are certainly very comparable.

 

[acbytesla]

Who owes the debt? The concept of reparations seems to be based on the idea that black families would have all this wealth if their ancestors had been paid. Well, it's pretty obvious who has that wealth--the descendants of slave-owners. Let's get them to pay.

Except the government legalized it. If it had been illegal, there would be no slaveowners, now would there be?

You have completely mischaracterised the argument that reparations opponents are making. Nobody is denying that slavery was a great crime.

If you admit it was a crime and that damages resulted from that crime, then isn't restitution in order?

But I do like that neat little sleight of hand there with the phrase "governments of the United States." In fact it was the individual state governments that allowed the great crime to occur.

It would be a mistake to suggest that the nation as a whole didn't allow it to happen. Even the US Constitution says that a slave is equal to 3/5ths of a free man. And for much of the period between 1789 and 1865 slaves that escaped to the North were returned to their owners. Doesn't that make the government co-conspirators in that crime?

When it comes to the slavery part, I certainly agree. But remember you are the one who said reparations aren't solely for slavery, but for the years of discrimination that followed. In that part they are certainly very comparable.

Look, I'm from poor white trash. Irish American. Whatever discrimination my ancestors faced it wasn't multigenerational. And it certainly wasn't institutional. I bet you can't find many laws that limited the Irish's upward mobility. Show me a single real estate covenant against those of Irish heritage.

 

[Lambchops]

I think, if you check his positng history, Lambchops does not like
A:The United States or
B.Anybody to the left of Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung.

This is ridiculous.

A: Accepting the undisputable fact that the US does not always make the right decisions is not the same as disliking the US for anything they have ever done.

B: I am a run of the mill left leaning European social democrat. I am critical of capitalism, but nowhere on this site will you find me advocating that capitalism should be abolished and replaced with socialism through brute force.

This is you buliding strawmen and projecting your rigid views on the world onto anyone who does not agree with you 100%.

 

[Brainster]

The New Republic comes down firmly against the pragmatic candidate, Amy Klobuchar:

Klobuchar only joined the race a few weeks ago, but already the press has cemented her identity as a pragmatist because she fills a key narrative role in the 2020 race: serving as a contrast to the supposed idealists who are driving most of the conversation (and most of the voter excitement) in the Democratic primary. This is shaping up to be the defining conflict of the race, especially if Joe Biden and Sherrod Brown—who would compete in Klobuchar’s lane—also enter the field. So it’s important to be clear now about what “pragmatism” really means, and why the Democratic Party ought to abandon it altogether.

This is pretty amazing, since the pragmatic view is what drives the DLC-types (Democratic moderates), and the New Republic might as well have been the house organ of the DLC back in the 1990s and early 2000s.

 

[Belz...]

Ahhh, there's the crux of the problem. Nobody wants to pay. As also someone of Irish heritage, I understand that opinion. But we are American citizens, aren't we?

America was built on the backs of slaves and racist discriminatory laws and culture. Do you agree with that? If the government deprives you of your property, don't we compensate you for it? And if you pass away, wouldn't we compensate your heirs?

I think what should be done is to instead make sure that everybody now benefits from that slave-made America. That's the best compensation I can think of: removing barriers and hitting discrimination hard.

 

[Mumbles]

Ahhh, there's the crux of the problem. Nobody wants to pay. As also someone of Irish heritage, I understand that opinion. But we are American citizens, aren't we?

America was built on the backs of slaves and racist discriminatory laws and culture. Do you agree with that? If the government deprives you of your property, don't we compensate you for it? And if you pass away, wouldn't we compensate your heirs?

Seems to me that yes, we do. And the US federal government is one continually existing entity that should be held liable for the severe damages it caused. And in fact, this was so effective that those who are owed compensation are, for largely conveniently isolated through segregation. Makes it relatively easy to create programs to compensate many of those affected via regional programs. Strong environmental cleanup programs, additional investments in education, aid with business loans, and so forth.

(and for reference, people who confuse "the US federal government" with "white people" are snitching on themselves.)

 

[dudalb]

I think what should be done is to instead make sure that everybody now benefits from that slave-made America. That's the best compensation I can think of: removing barriers and hitting discrimination hard.

This.
I have real issue with the idea that somebody alive today should pay for what his great great grand daddy did a couple of hundred years ago.

 

[Jerrymander]

To be paid by whom? The slave owners are presumably all dead. I can assure you that my ancestors never owned slaves; my grandparents all came over on the boat, most of them from Ireland. We're kind of waiting on our reparations from Great Britain for the potato famine.

To answer your question: The government.

Was it wrong that Germany to pay reparations to the Jews and the state of Israel even though not all of its citizens were part of the Holocaust

Was it wrong for us to give reparations to Japanese Americans even with tax money from people who had nothing to do with internment?

 

[dudalb]

Just read..it's up at all the newsites..about the blow up in the Democratic caucus today and AOC saying she has a list of moderate democrats she is going to try to primary in 2020.
Nice going, guys. Lets drive the moderates out of the party and reelect Trump.
Let's snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory once again.
And AOC is becoming really arrogant. All the media hype have gotten to her and she has an inflated opinion of herself.
I know you got your own comic book, AOC, but in real life you ain't got any superpowers.

 

[Delvo]

Looking at such payments as being about fixing present problems rather than punishing living people for the sins of the dead, I don't have any problem with it. Governments should invest money in fixing problems and bringing as much fairness to the people's lives as is feasible. Apparently, that word starts with an F, not a PH. Weird.

But in some cases, I just don't see a way to make it work.

The USA could pay a native tribal council because that's another government, which can be treated as a single whole unit. The question of how much to pay could be debated & settled in fairly straightforward terms of what that whole tribe's problems and needs are, and it would be up to the tribal government to decide what to do with the money. Also, a tribal economy is pretty small compared to the USA's, so the expense to the USA would not be very significant.

With Japanese imprisonment in WWII, there was no such separate government to go through, but handling it on an individual scale would have been pretty straightforward because it was still exactly the same individuals who'd been mistreated in the first place, we had their identities, and they'd all had the same thing done to them. And again, there weren't too many of them (and the harm done to them had been smaller than in other cases we might compare theirs with), so the expense wasn't too vast.

None of that is true for black Americans, or for American descendants of slaves to American/Confederate owners, or for whatever other such group definition you could come up with (any one of which would include some people whom another definition excludes). They're a large enough fraction of the population that the financial burden would be dire. Worse yet, they don't have their own government for the USA's to interact with, either to discuss the appropriate payment amount with or to actually deliver the payment(s) to. So then we're stuck with paying individuals or maybe households, but on that scale, there's no way to determine who gets paid and who doesn't, or how much; there's just too much variation in every parameter you could imagine trying to use.