Trans Women are not Women

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Belz... said:
Yeah you can read about it in a book but the point is that nothing beats going through the process, especially since everybody does at some point anyway.
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That's right. And so will the "children" who have elected (with the advice and counsel of medical professionals) to wait until they are allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to proceed with HRT.

Until that time they have the advice and experience of others to help guide them in a choice which has few if any significant costs compared to the inability to make that choice.

There are a lot more resources available to them than simply what they "read in a book". But then, I expect you know that.

I have been involved in more than a few support groups for the transgendered. The ages encountered run the full gamut from early teens to senior citizens. There is no disagreement at all about the detrimental effects of being needlessly forced to undergo a puberty which is not wanted.

Zig's point is that the process itself is part of the maturing. Remove the process, and you stilt that maturation. It doesn't sounds like a great idea.
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Puberty isn't being "removed". It's being postponed. And not for all that long.

The idea that this somehow interferes in some significant fashion with "maturing" is one which could use some foundation, because I have yet to see any.

Maturity is a rather ill-defined concept to begin with. I have known a lot of children who at a very young age were far more mature than many adults will ever be able to hope to be.

There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast schedule. Our society has chosen some numbers (like 18 years old) which serve to encompass the larger proportion of its members as far as legally engaging in certain activities. The numbers are chosen out of convenience and necessity. As I have often heard said, "We have to draw the line somewhere."

If you think there has been a great deal of consensus as to where that line need be drawn then I suggest you review recent as well as older history.

But no one sane is going to suggest that all people become equally mature on the day they turn 18, or were equally immature the day before.

You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.

Much of maturity is related to experience. I certainly find that to be true. Transgender (and LGB) youths and young adults that I have met seem to in general be far more 'mature' than others of their age cohorts. I expect that is because they have had a lot of experiences which those others have not.

Is this a maturity which can inform a decision like electing to postpone puberty?

With the adjunct of counseling and medical supervision ... yes. I believe it is.
 
quadraginta said:
That's right. And so will the "children" who have elected (with the advice and counsel of medical professionals) to wait until they are allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to proceed with HRT.
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An up to ten year delay doesn't sound like it won't have negative consequences.

Until that time they have the advice and experience of others to help guide them in a choice which has few if any significant costs compared to the inability to make that choice.
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But they can't know because their hormones haven't fully kicked in yet.

There are a lot more resources available to them than simply what they "read in a book". But then, I expect you know that.
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Yes, that was hyperbole.

You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.
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I just think that, if I don't let children drive or drink, that's because we don't consider them mature enough for that. Seems like having experience and good self-awareness, including your full development, is key to making such complex and far-reaching decisions.
 
quadraginta said:
You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.
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Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.
 
theprestige said:
quadraginta said:
Haw, haw.

I expect better of you.
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I wish you were expecting a serious question, because that's what I asked. I feel like you haven't really given much thought to what the maturation process actually is, and what actually distinguishes a child from an adult. I feel like you're treating my question as a joke, because it's easier than actually stopping to think about what 18 years of age actually means in terms of this discussion.
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I've given it a great deal of thought. And have read about it, and discussed it with professionals in the field.

You're the one who seems to think it is some sort of magical transition point.

I have not seen anything which suggests that delaying the onset of puberty for a few years has any effect on cognition.

I'll be interested in looking at whatever evidence you have that it does.
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I'll let you know if I find any.

But the way I see it, you're the one who's arguing that delaying maturation is safe and ethical. So it's on you to investigate related questions of maturity. If you can't answer the question of brain maturity, then I'm probably not ready to agree to your proposal.
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I wasn't the one who brought it up. I have been talking about delaying the physiological process of puberty.

Zig proposed this conceit that there is somehow some significant and meaningful connection between that and "maturity"... and/or "maturation", whatever the difference may be. Then you jumped on that bandwagon with him.

It isn't my job to refute some conjecture which you have constructed out of thin air. Start by showing me that such a problem even exists. That's on you, not me.
 
Ziggurat said:
Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.
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And by the time you find out you don't ...

... well, darn! It's too late. Oh, well. Too bad.

If only there were someway to anticipate that such a likelihood might exist. You know. Something like years of counseling and therapy.
 
quadraginta said:
I wasn't the one who brought it up. I have been talking about delaying the physiological process of puberty.

Zig proposed this conceit that there is somehow some significant and meaningful connection between that and "maturity"... and/or "maturation", whatever the difference may be. Then you jumped on that bandwagon with him.
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I presume you are referring to post #360. I suggest you read it again. It does not contain the word "maturity" or "maturation". I argued that you can't fully understand what puberty does to you unless you experience it, but that wasn't a claim about generalized maturation, it was only about one's understanding of puberty specifically.
 
quadraginta said:
And by the time you find out you don't ...

... well, darn! It's too late. Oh, well. Too bad.

If only there were someway to anticipate that such a likelihood might exist. You know. Something like years of counseling and therapy.
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There is no risk-free course of action. And there are people who transition that later regret it.
 
I suppose we should tell women they can't use birth control until they've already been pregnant then, how do they know they don't want a baby if they haven't experienced one?

Puberty brings on a number of irreversible changes to the body - to the bones, to hair growth, to the vocal cords, not just to the genitals. Some of them can be repaired to a degree by expensive plastic surgery, but most can't.

Puberty-blocking drugs do only that. They don't transition a person, they just keep them from undergoing irreversible changes. This also means they don't have to spend their adolescence fighting to think clearly through a tsunami of hormones, so in many ways they should be more mentally mature than the average sex-addled adolescent.
 
deadrose said:
I suppose we should tell women they can't use birth control until they've already been pregnant then, how do they know they don't want a baby if they haven't experienced one?
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Not equivalent. They know what it's like to be not pregnant. But you cannot remain prepubescent for your whole life. That isn't a viable solution.

Puberty-blocking drugs do only that. They don't transition a person, they just keep them from undergoing irreversible changes.
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But they do have side effects, some of which can be quite serious (such as hepatitis).
 
Going through puberty has serious side effects too, especially if your body and gender don't match.

Bad jokes aside, would you feel comfortable if you started sprouting breasts, wider hips, and subcutaneous fat tomorrow? How about getting your period? For the females in the room, how about a beard and deep voice or a receding hairline? Random erections?

Can you see how this could be misery-inducing to a trans teenager? Combined with the mood swings caused by those surges of hormones, it can cause a lot of severe depression and suicidal behavior. The risks of puberty blockers are a lot lower.
 
Ziggurat said:
Prepubescent children do not know what the changes caused by puberty are like, and cannot know until they experience it. Their opinions about not wanting to go through those changes are uninformed.
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Oh give me a break. "cannot know what the changes caused by puberty are like until they experience it"... cannot huh? Get the **** out of here with that ****.

That would be like saying I have no idea what Africa is like because I have never been there.

A human being can absorb a sufficient amount of information about pretty much anything to where they reach a point where they know just as much about it as someone who has experienced it directly. Or definitely enough to make a knowledgeable decision. Through text, video, simulation, and many other methods of learning.

Now whether or not they are intelligent enough to make that decision is an entirely different thing... That age will vary widely per person. But that has **** all to do with the waste you are trying to sell.
 
deadrose said:
Going through puberty has serious side effects too, especially if your body and gender don't match.

Bad jokes aside, would you feel comfortable if you started sprouting breasts, wider hips, and subcutaneous fat tomorrow? How about getting your period? For the females in the room, how about a beard and deep voice or a receding hairline? Random erections?

Can you see how this could be misery-inducing to a trans teenager? Combined with the mood swings caused by those surges of hormones, it can cause a lot of severe depression and suicidal behavior. The risks of puberty blockers are a lot lower.
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Thank you.
 
This is The End said:
Oh give me a break. "cannot know what the changes caused by puberty are like until they experience it"... cannot huh? Get the **** out of here with that ****.

That would be like saying I have no idea what Africa is like because I have never been there.
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These are not equivalent problems. Puberty doesn't just change your body, it changes your brain. You aren't just responding to some external change, there's an internal change as well. You aren't the same you after the process.
 
Ziggurat said:
Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.
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I should really try to find the figures, but as I understand most people who consider themselves transgender at a young age turn out not to be by the time they are 25.
 
Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.
 
deadrose said:
Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.
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Sure. So, what do you think that says about pregnancy? That one can't know before going through it how one will feel about it after? I think that makes sense.

What insight do you think this offers to the subject under discussion?
 
deadrose said:
Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.
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The difference being we have about 6 million years of billions of examples of what happens after a woman gets pregnant and has a baby and sweet FA on what happens if someone with delayed puberty for years decides they have changed their mind.
 
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