The Green New Deal

When I say nuclear power is not a mature technology, I'm NOT referring to traditional high pressure nuclear reactors. But there are many different nuclear technologies. I'm referring to thermal wave and molten salt reactors. I'm referring to reactors that can use depleted uranium aand thorium. And I haven't touched fusion.

Ding ding ding. While traditional high pressure reactors are a mature technology, there is NO CHANCE whatsoever of it replacing more then a small fraction of the energy currently produced by fossil fuels. Reactors that may be capable of more are not even production technology yet, let alone mature technology.
 
Ding ding ding. While traditional high pressure reactors are a mature technology, there is NO CHANCE whatsoever of it replacing more then a small fraction of the energy currently produced by fossil fuels. Reactors that may be capable of more are not even production technology yet, let alone mature technology.

Yea, fusion power is still beyond experimental. They have never even produced more energy from a fusion reaction than they have consumed. Thermal wave reactors which are capable of using depleted uranium is also experimental.

The MSRE thorium reactor, built at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, operated critical for roughly 15,000 hours from 1965 to 1969. In 1968, Nobel laureate and discoverer of plutonium, Glenn Seaborg, publicly announced to the Atomic Energy Commission, of which he was chairman, that the thorium-based reactor had been successfully developed and tested.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power

Fusion is the holy grail of nuclear power, but I personally believe that both thermal wave and thorium should receive more attention than fusion and are more realistic in the short term.
 
What is "thermal wave"?

My mistake, I keep calling it thermal wave. The correct term is traveling wave.

It's pretty hard to explain but it's a kind of breeder reactor that can use depleted uranium. Today's light water reactors can only use uranium 235. After uranium is mined it goes through an enrichment process which leads to a small amount of U-235 and a lot more of U-238 which is now waste. A thermal wave reactor is a type of reactor that can use U238. Combined with molten salt technology, a safer and much less expensive nuclear power could possibly be attained.

You can read more about it here. https://terrapower.com/technologies/physics
 
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It's pretty hard to explain but it's a kind of breeder reactor that can use depleted uranium. Today's light water reactors can only use uranium 235. After uranium is mined it goes through an enrichment process which leads to a small amount of U-235 and a lot more of U-238 which is now waste. A thermal wave reactor is a type of reactor that can use U238. Combined with molten salt technology, a safer and much less expensive nuclear power could possibly be attained.

You can read more about it here. https://terrapower.com/technologies/physics


So it's traveling wave, not thermal wave? Whichever you mean, you said it's experimental. Can you cite the experiments?
 
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So it's traveling wave, not thermal wave? Whichever you mean, you said it's experimental. Can you site the experiments?

Traveling wave
Most of the work has been theoretical and computational . Traveling wave reactors are based on work done in 1995 by Edward Teller who proposed a gas-cooled thorium breed-and-burn reactor. He and others at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory detail ways to make breed-burn waves travel through a stationary fuel supply.

Georgy Toshinsky developed the concept of a liquid metal fast breeder reactor. His design is similar to the FSMR concept, but lead-cooled.

Hiroshi Sekimoto popularizes breed-burn concepts with the CANDLE (Constant Axial shape of Neutron flux, nuclide number densities and power shape During Life of Energy producing reactor). His CANDLE concept incorporates lead coolant.

TerraPower is a Canadian firm funded by Bill Gates to develop traveling wave and molten salt technology.

This all may turn into nothing but appears promising.
 
The GND seems to be at least a way to ignore the gridlock and obstructionism (and flat-out denial), telling those who do so to stay in the corner and play with themselves, while seeing which of these proposals - many of which are popular - get some traction and build momentum into real change.

Some of it is stupid, but it's telling that the naysayers have latched on to minutiae and terminology rather than debate the merits of the larger issues it attempts to address.


It isn't that we shouldn't address the concerns and issues, nor the crimes of those who exaggerate in ether extreme to milk profits from the popular fears of acting unnecessarily, ...or too late. But, we are an incredibly intelligent species, we can discuss well-reasoned options and courses of action, while we more fully explore the details of what is happening and inform/learn of the reasons and need for action. Most all of us practice many different forms of this everyday across the multitude of projects, concerns and possibilities.
 
Traveling wave
Most of the work has been theoretical and computational . Traveling wave reactors are based on work done in 1995 by Edward Teller who proposed a gas-cooled thorium breed-and-burn reactor. He and others at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory detail ways to make breed-burn waves travel through a stationary fuel supply.

Georgy Toshinsky developed the concept of a liquid metal fast breeder reactor. His design is similar to the FSMR concept, but lead-cooled.

Hiroshi Sekimoto popularizes breed-burn concepts with the CANDLE (Constant Axial shape of Neutron flux, nuclide number densities and power shape During Life of Energy producing reactor). His CANDLE concept incorporates lead coolant.

TerraPower is a Canadian firm funded by Bill Gates to develop traveling wave and molten salt technology.

This all may turn into nothing but appears promising.


What, no consideration of solid-state reactors or even accelerator catalyzed reactors?! Yeah, while many NIMBY and Anti-nuke activists focus on Gen 2 & 3 reactors, even most nuclear power proponents (outside the established nuclear power industry) are against any expansion (and unnecessary continuation) of these largely outdated, and quickly becoming antiquated and unnecessarily dangerous, power technology systems. At this point it is becoming a less and less of a short-term necessary bridge-technology, but ultimately advanced nuclear power technologies may still fill a necessary role in their more refined incarnation, and I'm willing to let science and economics decide the issue, I just want it to be a well-informed, and objectively considered decision.
 
This all may turn into nothing but appears promising.
While you hold out for a 'breakthrough' that may turn into nothing, the market is delivering practical solutions with renewables now.

A thermal wave reactor is a type of reactor that can use U238. Combined with molten salt technology, a safer and much less expensive nuclear power could possibly be attained.
We need more than just 'possibly', and we need it now, not at some unspecified time in the future when it will probably be too late.

Traveling wave reactor
Traveling-wave reactors were first proposed in the 1950s and have been studied intermittently. The concept of a reactor that could breed its own fuel inside the reactor core was initially proposed and studied in 1958 by Saveli Feinberg, who called it a "breed-and-burn" reactor. Michael Driscoll published further research on the concept in 1979...

No TWR has yet been constructed, but in 2006, Intellectual Ventures launched a spin-off named TerraPower to model and commercialize a working design...

In September, 2015 TerraPower and China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC) signed a memorandum of understanding to jointly develop a TWR. TerraPower plans to build a 600 MWe demonstration Plant, the TWR-P, by 2018–2022 followed by larger commercial plants of 1150 MWe in the late 2020s.
Forgive me for not being enthused, but I have been disappointed too many times by promises of 'breakthroughs' that never eventuated. Even if they do manage to get it working by the target date (which is doubtful given the nuclear industry's track record) in the mean time renewables would have had another 10 years or so of development and been making a significantly increasing contribution to reducing Global Warming the whole time.

I'm not saying that TerraPower shouldn't be allowed to continue their experiment, but we shouldn't pin our hopes on it - and we certainly shouldn't be pouring large amounts of taxpayers money into technologies that are still only theoretical, when we have other real solutions that are already making an impact.

And just in case you think I am only against nuclear, remember this?

Solyndra
The solar panels developed by the company were claimed to be unlike any other product ever tried in the industry. The panels were made of racks of cylindrical tubes (also called tubular solar panels), as opposed to traditional flat panels. Solyndra rolled its CIGS thin films into a cylindrical shape and placed 40 of them in each 1-meter-by-2-meter panel. Solyndra designers thought the cylindrical solar panels absorbed energy from any direction (direct, indirect, and reflected light).


It could be argued that to prevent financial meltdown the government had to inject money into the economy somewhere, so why not invest in renewables? But choosing to support a radically different and unproven design was a bad idea. Anyone who knows anything about PV could tell you that Solyndra's design was dodgy, both technically and economically. So the end result was no surprise...

Between 2009 and mid-2011 the price of polysilicon, the key ingredient for most competing technologies, dropped by about 89%. This precipitous drop in the cost of raw materials for Solyndra's competitors rendered CIGS technology incapable of competing


Instead of trying to pick winners, it would have been better if the government had simply provided the industry with the freedom to develop on its own. But instead, what did we get?

U.S. Slaps High Tariffs on Chinese Solar Panels
MAY 17, 2012

The United States on Thursday announced the imposition of antidumping tariffs of more than 31 percent on solar panels from China.

The antidumping decision is among the biggest in American history, covering one of the largest and fastest-growing categories of imports from China, the world’s largest exporter...

“Limiting trade in solar products will cause panel prices to increase, defeating America’s goal of driving down costs,” said Shawn Qu, chief executive of Canadian Solar, which makes panels in several Chinese plants and does brisk business in the United States. “Our first priority should be to support the health of the industry as a whole through the financing and installation of solar, which is the key driver to expanding jobs in the U.S. solar market.”


Economically this was a stupid decision. Even if the Chinese really were 'dumping' solar panels, that was their loss - not ours. So why not take advantage of it? No prizes for guessing the answer...

SolarWorld Industries America, which led the coalition of manufacturers that filed the solar dumping case, welcomed the department’s ruling.


They were still at it in 2018,

US imposes new anti-dumping duties on Chinese, Taiwanese solar panels
The preliminary tariffs were given after SolarWorld, a German solar manufacturer with operations in the USA, claimed Chinese manufacturers were avoiding paying duties by producing solar cells in Taiwan.

China’s Trina Solar faces the lowest duty of 26.33% for its products, while Rensola/Jinko received a duty of 58.87%.

A list of 42 other Chinese exporters, including Canadian Solar International and Hainan Yingli New Energy Resources, were given a rate of 42.33%. The highest rates, of 165.04%, were reserved for the companies that did not co-operate with the investigation.


And all for nothing...

Solar Panels Are Cheap, Despite Trump Tariffs
When President Trump implemented tariffs on imported solar cells and panels early in 2018, it was intended to drive a manufacturing renaissance in the U.S. and potentially hurt the overseas solar manufacturing industry. But solar manufacturing isn't returning to the U.S., and solar panel prices are actually lower now than when tariffs were implemented


No matter what the technology, simply giving the industry room to grow is usually more productive than trying to force it down a particular path. Monocrystalline solar panels were once very expensive, now they are cheaper than coal. This wasn't caused by any 'breakthroughs', just the result expected from incremental development of a proven technology.
 
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While you hold out for a 'breakthrough' that may turn into nothing, the market is delivering practical solutions with renewables now.
And they certainly wouldn't being doing that now if it weren't for R&D and subsidies that jump started those industries.

I'm not a greenie in the sense that I think we can abandon ICEs tomorrow and run everything on electric motors tomorrow. I believe in realistic answers which includes government involvement.

As for Solyndra and the solar industry, the whole reason that solar is promising now is the result of government investment. Both American and Chinese. For all the government dollars the US taxpayers lost in Solyndra, multiply that by 20 what China has poured into solar.

China bought the solar manufacturing industry by building an overcapacity of fabrication plants. Money that is spent and buried and given the competitive low price of solar is likely NEVER to be recovered. That said, the plants are built. The infrastructure is there and this is the most expensive cost in manufacturing solar panels.

No doubt China has been dumping solar panels on the market. They simply don't have a choice unless they want to shutter those plants and lose the jobs that go with it. But it is highly unlikely that their panel prices will reflect the billions of sunk money in fabrication plants.

Yet solar is booming even though Trump seems bent on killing it and still pushing coal. Never mind that we shuttered more coal plants last year than ever before and many more are going to be.

For most of my life conservatives have mocked renewables, especially solar. And now solar is beating EVERYTHING and it's only going to get better.

I see governments role is to lead us in the right direction. A direction that may be counter to the markets. The problem isn't the government. The problem is that market economics keep leading us down the same old path headed to disaster. In my lifetime, I've watched at least 3 cycles where consumers responding to spikes in fuel dumped their big vehicles for smaller more efficient models ONLY to go back to their bigger vehicles when the fuel prices went down. Free marketplaces lead to these swings. It's the beauty and curse of them. But if you want to reduce the amount of CO2 emissions, burn less fuel. But simple market economics is fighting against that goal. This is a conundrum that is not easy to resolve. And the answers are not going to be popular.

Back to solar, a combination of government R&D, subsidies and engineering has led to ever cheaper and efficient silicon solar. But 99 percent of the money is spent for tiny improvements that have added up over time. But the sunk costs and high cost of entry has been a barrier for the entry of potentially even more promising technology like perovskites.
Perovskites are extremely promising if it can get it's foot in the door.

I see the necessity of government functioning a bit like a venture capital firm. Investing in developing many different technologies where 80 percent are going to fail.
 
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Yet solar is booming even though Trump seems bent on killing it and still pushing coal. Never mind that we shuttered more coal plants last year than ever before and many more are going to be.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. It turns out Trump's tariffs have cost 18,000 US jobs.

Trump Tariffs Challenge Growth

However, solar energy jobs have stagnated and dipped for two consecutive years since the Department of Energy’s initial report, with a loss of 10,000 jobs in 2017 followed by a further 8,000 in 2018. Although some job losses were foreseen as a result of project finalizations in several states, the biggest contributing factor was President Trump’s tariffs on solar panels . The first shot fired in what would become a wide-ranging trade war with China in 2018, the U.S.’ decision to add a 30% tariff on foreign-produced solar panels had a negative effect on its domestic solar industry, which heavily relies on cheap imports.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamese...iffs-the-us-lost-20000-solar-energy-jobs/amp/
 
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I love Solar energy, and I'm a Republican. I have several panels installed. Does AOC have any solar panels? If not, why not?

No time better than the present to go solar, panels are cheaper than ever.

Yes, I'm a Republican and I'm saving the World. What are you doing to save the World? Searching for an Democrat energy system that runs on blackface?

Chris B.
 
The difference between being paid to sit on your arse and not do a damn thing as is part of The Green New Deal, compared to expecting a fair payment for services rendered is NOT minutiae.

It's fundamental to the entire policy.

The fact that paying people to sit on their arse is a devious trap to undermine the freedoms of the gullible, now that is minutiae.

This is not a part of the GND.
 
This is not a part of the GND.

I've mentioned that to him before, but it's not sinking in.
Not only is it not a part of it, but the architects of the economic aspects of the GND are strongly opposed to a UBI, because any amount of money which would be enough for anyone to support themselves on would also cause serious inflation.
 
I've mentioned that to him before, but it's not sinking in.
Not only is it not a part of it, but the architects of the economic aspects of the GND are strongly opposed to a UBI, because any amount of money which would be enough for anyone to support themselves on would also cause serious inflation.

Considering the part of my post which he's quoting, it's especially ironic.
 
Yea, fusion power is still beyond experimental. They have never even produced more energy from a fusion reaction than they have consumed. Thermal wave reactors which are capable of using depleted uranium is also experimental.



Fusion is the holy grail of nuclear power, but I personally believe that both thermal wave and thorium should receive more attention than fusion and are more realistic in the short term.

The IET (UK Engineering learned society) magazine had an article about the prospects for fusion power in 2013:

I'm quoting myself because the IET magazine link is now broken:


I always think it is odd that you aiming to create something as hot as the sun, and then using it to make steam. It seems so... inelegant.

Given the capital requirements*, I think the most economical location for a fusion reactor is about 150-Gm from here.

Especially as the cost of photovoltaics is dropping rapidly - 12-19% in 2013 and on track for another 3-12% in 2014 according to the NREL

http://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2014/15405.html

October 20, 2014

Distributed solar photovoltaic (PV) system prices dropped by 12 - 19 percent nationwide in 2013, according to the third edition of a jointly written report on PV pricing trends from the Energy Department's (DOE) National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL). In addition, 2014 prices are expected to drop another 3 - 12 percent, depending on system location and market segment. Industry analysts expect this trend to continue over the next couple of years, keeping the nation on track to meet the DOE SunShot Initiative's 2020 targets.

Full PDF report here



The IET Magazine quoted the director of operations at the Cullham Centre for Fusion Energy (Home of the JET) as saying that we could build a working fusion reactor with today's technology - it is just that the fusion plant would have a lifetime of 2-years, and a capital cost of $10Bn. (I suppose it does mean that in comparison the running costs would be negligible...)

“We could actually build a reactor now, but it would not be economic because whilst the neutrons give up their energy and produce the heat we need to generate steam, they also damage the materials we have available now. The physics of fusion is now well mostly understood and resolved, but what is not resolved is the engineering consequences of generating these neutrons.

“You could build a reactor now with today's materials, but it wouldn't be economic because you would have to build a new reactor or remove and replace to core of the machine within two years. This includes everything inside the plasma chamber; ten billions dollar’s worth of plant. “The machines we have available at the minute are designed to only run for short bursts. The JET can only sustain plasma for 30 or 40 seconds because the coils get hot. In principal you could keep the plasma running for hours, but your coils and power supplies would basically cook. It is not a physics limitation but a balance of plant limitation.”
 
I've mentioned that to him before, but it's not sinking in.
Not only is it not a part of it, but the architects of the economic aspects of the GND are strongly opposed to a UBI, because any amount of money which would be enough for anyone to support themselves on would also cause serious inflation.

I don't know anyone and by that I mean serious politicians arguing for the UBI at this time much less creating a bill for it.
 

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