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A "Before" the Big Bang?

Iacchus said:
Oh I see, and before Christopher Columbus discovered America the earth was flat, right? These boundaries are all in your mind. I mean you really should watch The Truman Show.
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Oh, and personally, I liked Pleasantville better. There's just something about Reese Witherspoon....
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Also, he wanted to sail around the world to reach INDIA. So if he thought the earth was flat, how would he sail AROUND IT.

I have never grasped the argument that CC thought the earth was flat, and feared he might fall over the edge. That doesn't fit the facts that he INTENDED to travel around the earth to reach india. It just doesn't make sence.

The argument contradicts itself.
 
TobiasTheCommie said:
Also, he wanted to sail around the world to reach INDIA. So if he thought the earth was flat, how would he sail AROUND IT.

I have never grasped the argument that CC thought the earth was flat, and feared he might fall over the edge. That doesn't fit the facts that he INTENDED to travel around the earth to reach india. It just doesn't make sence.

The argument contradicts itself.
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Ya hafta understand, Tobias, CC had this vision, ya see.....
 
TobiasTheCommie said:
Oh good god.

Please, for the love of god, and everything decent, take a 5 min break.

Sincerely
Tobias
:D
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Hey, I just noticed something...I'm a "muse". Heh...neat. I hadn't realized that I'd posted THAT much...

I'm almost done with my first cuppa joe. Once that's done, I'll grab the travel mug and head out to the fun that is yard work.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but isn't it the least bit strange to you that the only way we can conceive of it is through "our thinking?"
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What is so strange here? We can use mathematics and physics even if we can't sense them with our senses. Visualising them would be much harder though.

Remember that we can imagine a lot of things. Even things that are not real. If we couldn't our arts and literature would be quite different from what they are now.

Ah, but we've just identified that "something" does exist.
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Identified how? If you are referring to kuroyme there, I think he was speaking hypothetically about something that might or might not exist. But you would have to ask him.

Iacchus said:
I am speaking of nothing in terms of everything that we know of which, does not preclude the non-existence of anything else. Which, is why I say it's merely a matter of what we perceive.
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I am specifically talking about nothing as non-existence of everything.

kuroyume0161 said:
It is probable that our four dimensional universe, say, exists within a five dimensional extra-universe. The fourth dimension we experience as time, not as a spatial dimension. So this sort of begs the question, "What exactly would the fifth dimension be?" Would it be a fourth spatial dimension with a fifth temporal one? Or would it be represented in some form that would be completely unexplainable by we mere four-dimensional beings?
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I've seen suggested that we might be a part of 10-dimensional universe. But that's not important for this discussion. What matters is that, like kuroyme said, there propably are extra dimensions.

Now, Iacchus, don't make the mistake of thinking that universe as we see it is expanding to these extra dimensions. Because it is the whole n-dimensional universe which is expanding. I have no idea what the limit of n is.

Iacchus said:
Oh I see, and before Christopher Columbus discovered America the earth was flat, right?
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By that time there allready was some evidence of Earth not being flat. But let's talk about time before any such evidence, like pre-historc people. In my opinion they would have been right to assume Earth was flat. They had no notion of gravity. They didn't know that locally very large sphere would appear flat. But after enough evidence and time the notion of flat Earth was rejected. So as long as we don't know if there is an outside for our n-dimensional universe we would have to assume there is not.

We can speculate, imagine and write bad sci-fi about it but that's about all we can do. :)
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but it only exists as a concept, because "we" weren't there. Therefore if, let's say, we had no awarness of the Big Bang whatsoever, and projected time back 20 billion years prior to the Big Bang, have we done something wrong here? How so, when all we've really done is project something with our mind? Whereas, in fact, regardless of whether we "sense" something is "out there," this is all we could ever hope to do.
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THis is hilarious--you have been shown how many times that there is no, and can be no, temporal "before the big bang", and now you posit a "20 billion years prior to the Big Bang"? Have we done something wrong here? Of course!
I am saying that the only boundaries that exist are the ones that exist in our minds.
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You are certainly demonstrating that you cannot get your own mind to comprehend reality.
 
kmortis said:
Nope. By the time that Ol' CC came aboot, pretty much everyone believed that the Earth was round. In fact, it was one of the old Greek philosophers who first posited that it was, in fact, round. I can't recall which one right now, but if it becomes a bone of contention, I'm sure that info can be provided.
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Erastosthenes. :)
 
Mercutio said:
THis is hilarious--you have been shown how many times that there is no, and can be no, temporal "before the big bang", and now you posit a "20 billion years prior to the Big Bang"? Have we done something wrong here? Of course!
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Ahem, uh, no ... only if nothing is ulitmate.

You are certainly demonstrating that you cannot get your own mind to comprehend reality.
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Yours perhaps, but not mine. :)
 
kuroyume0161 said:
If it's not against any copyrights, maybe we can start each posting a paragraph at a time (with proper attributions). :)
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Actually, I don't think I had much of a problem eating my spinach when I was a kid. I really didn't care much for beets though. Regardless, I think I would find it difficult if somebody were trying to force feed me. :boggled: And, while some of us may attribute this to willful ignorance -- indeed -- this is what free will is all about ... not being forced to do anything you don't understand.

Perhaps this is why some of you have such a hard time reconciling yourselves to it? ;)
 
If this means you will exit threads in which we start posting excerpts of Flatland, then I am all for it.
 
Iacchus said:
Regardless, I think I would find it difficult if somebody were trying to force feed me. :boggled: And, while some of us may attribute this to willful ignorance -- indeed -- this is what free will is all about ... not being forced to do anything you don't understand.
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I thought the whole point here was to help you understand. But if you wish to remain ignorant then that's your choice. No one is forcing anything. Just don't expect much participation from other people then.
 
I don't know how anyone can help educate this guy. His philosophy is based on two movies.
 
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