The Green New Deal

I'm never going to catch up on this thread but I read a couple of pages. So some of the ideas proposed are dumb. I think there's still value in someone having offered up a sort of manifesto in that it might get the attention of young voters. (Or maybe not). In the early '70s there was a reason for young people to pay attention to government: the Vietnam War. In the 2000s' I saw a lot of young people energized by immigration issues, but I'm not sure they voted in droves. And now, I'm not sure there's any one issue that would drive young voters to the polls, but a far-reaching environmental statement is worthwhile if only to advance the conversation, IMO.

Young people are going to have longer to deal with whatever messes my generation has made, so it bums me out that they are not more involved. We're leaving them with kind of a mess.

ETA: I wonder if young people are half as interested in AOC as us, uh, middle-aged folk reading this thread ...
 
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We need to put things into perspective, we haven't solved the solar waste problem either. All technologies will produce waste and increase entropy in other places in the environment

https://solarindustrymag.com/online...d_In_Silicon_PV_Cell_Production_A_Primer.html

Nuclear is about as clean as it gets.

Not sure what you're arguing here. You're claiming that "Nuclear is about as clean as it gets" because production of solar cells involves toxic chemicals? At least three of the chemicals you cited are also involved in producing reactor fuel. One the intermediates in reactor fuel production, uranium hexaflouride, is toxic, radioactive, highly corrosive, highly reactive, and subsequently hard to contain. It's also processed in the form a gas.

And when you're done solar cells aren't toxic or radioactive, but reactor fuel is both and gets worse as you use it.

Not sure how the "cleanliness" issue really plays out here.
 
Not sure what you're arguing here. You're claiming that "Nuclear is about as clean as it gets" because production of solar cells involves toxic chemicals? At least three of the chemicals you cited are also involved in producing reactor fuel. One the intermediates in reactor fuel production, uranium hexaflouride, is toxic, radioactive, highly corrosive, highly reactive, and subsequently hard to contain. It's also processed in the form a gas.

And when you're done solar cells aren't toxic or radioactive, but reactor fuel is both and gets worse as you use it.

Not sure how the "cleanliness" issue really plays out here.

I think some of them are mildly toxic
https://www.solarpowerinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/N253_9-14-1530.pdf

Title: PV Life Cycle Analysis Managing PV Assets over an Uncertain Lifetime
Module disposal is potentially a major issue –Some modules contain hazardous waste, but limited data available to verify which modules fail the Toxicity Characteristic Leaching Procedure (TCLP) –Some deployment estimates show that PV waste could equal 10% of today’s e-waste by 2050 –Disposal in regular landfills not recommended in case modules break and toxic materials leach into the soil

and most importantly, at the end of the article:
More data is needed to clarify the extent to which module toxicity is a pervasive issue.

My only point is that solar has a waste issue itself, whatever we do is going to cause downstream waste
 
I think some of them are mildly toxic
https://www.solarpowerinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/N253_9-14-1530.pdf

Title: PV Life Cycle Analysis Managing PV Assets over an Uncertain Lifetime

and most importantly, at the end of the article:

My only point is that solar has a waste issue itself, whatever we do is going to cause downstream waste

Okay, then. You got me there. I accept your correction that solar cells might be a potential problem in landfills.

Can I get your opinion on disposing of nuclear waste the in same landfills they are talking about in that article? We're talking the same landfills that rotten apples and oranges might show up in.
 
I think some of them are mildly toxic
https://www.solarpowerinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/N253_9-14-1530.pdf

Title: PV Life Cycle Analysis Managing PV Assets over an Uncertain Lifetime


and most importantly, at the end of the article:


My only point is that solar has a waste issue itself, whatever we do is going to cause downstream waste

Anything that involves manufacturing and construction will have waste. Coal fired power plants even after FGD and any attempts at cleanup would be extremely costly to make "clean" and the internal combustion engine likewise.
 
Okay, then. You got me there. I accept your correction that solar cells might be a potential problem in landfills.

Can I get your opinion on disposing of nuclear waste the in same landfills they are talking about in that article? We're talking the same landfills that rotten apples and oranges might show up in.
Nuclear waste always seemed scarier to me because of the mutagenic possibilities. Plain old poison is bad enough but chromosome damage is maybe even scarier.

But you plan for it, design for it and factor it in the risk/benefit aspect. Nothing will be 100 percent safe.
 
It's your side that is saying that is not enough, that we need to get rid of cows (or their farts).

Literally NO-ONE from any side is saying that we have to "get rid of cows". You look and sound increasingly like a CT doing a fringe reset, continually repeating a false meme after it has been clearly debunked.

What they are saying is that the methane emitted by dairy and beef herds is something that MUST be addressed.

Also, it seems (also typical CT behaviour) that you have totally ignored and hand-waved away factual information which has been posted here BY PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!

I live in a country (New Zealand) where agriculture accounts for almost half (48%) of the entire country's greenhouse gas emissions from all other sources combined. Even worse, nearly quarter of all our greenhouse gasses come from a single sector of our agricultural activity... Dairy farming.

nz-ghg-fig2-static.jpg


Phantom Wolf has posted several posts in thread explaining that "farting and burping cows" however much you might want snigger about it, and latch onto it as a meme to ridicule AGW believers, IS A REAL ISSUE FOR US!! We don't take it lightly, and we have a lot of Ag. scientists doing herd testing, experimentation and analysis to try to come up with dietary changes for our beef and dairy herds to minimise their output of greenhouse gases.

Also, the current NZ Government is undertaking a massive planting programme to try to extend the left-hand end of the above chart to offset the country's total greenhouse gas output. If we can do that, and minimise the output from Agriculture and Energy, we might just be able to not only reduce our net output to zero, way may even be able to achieve a net negative output.
 
Nuclear waste always seemed scarier to me because of the mutagenic possibilities. Plain old poison is bad enough but chromosome damage is maybe even scarier.

But you plan for it, design for it and factor it in the risk/benefit aspect. Nothing will be 100 percent safe.

Quite a few non-radioactive chemicals are mutagenic too. However, solar cell disposal and nuclear waste disposal are still not comparable.

BTW I feel the need to point out I'm overall in favor of nuclear power. Maybe not any current design, but still, I think nuclear needs to be taken seriously.
 
What they are saying is that the methane emitted by dairy and beef herds is something that MUST be addressed.

This is probably wrong. The problem with CO2 is that it persists in the atmosphere for a long time. Methane doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long, it decays into CO2 in about a decade or so. To a first approximation Methane in the atmosphere only increases when emissions of Methane are increasing. IOW "equivalent CO2" should only count increases in Methane production not total respiration.

Furthermore, baring some major unforeseen rapid emission of Methane from permafrost or thawing Methane hydrates, Methane itself is a nearly negligible fraction of total greenhouse forcing by the time we start to get into the really bad scenarios.

Energy used in agriculture and fertilizer production are a bigger problem in the long run than Methane because these represent the introduction new carbon into the carbon cycle, Methane does not.
 
The interesting thing for me in this thread is replacing coal and oil as fuels. I'm not in general thinking about cows. But I can point out that the cows are farmed and the breeding of most is controlled by humans. They are then fed high protein feeds and given pharmaceutical supplements. It isn't cows that are the root cause of the problem, it is overweight Austrians, Americans and others (come on you know who you are) who eat too much in general and beef in particular. Fewer cows would not be harmful to anyone including the bovine species.
 
This is increasingly my concern with American politics. You have one side proposing solutions to a problem that I may not personally like, or may be tragically flaw is some way. Let's name them the Democrats, just as an example.

You have another side denying the problem exists and doing nothing about. Let's call them the Republicans.

If you accept that the problem is real, you really don't have any options. The options are faulty solution, or denialism.
I have expressed this problem regarding AGW for years now.

That's why I wrote this Is there a technically viable and economically advantageous solution to Climate Change and what is preventing its implementation? for a conservative blog and posted parts of it here already. See #288

The Green New Deal hasn't a chance in hell of solving the problem because they are more interested in making the US a socialist state than solving AGW.

But as bad as the Democrat plan may be, the denialism from the current Republican leadership is even worse. Not only will if fail to solve the problem, it could actually make it even worse than it is already.

oh and Smartcooky's prediction @ #290 has indeed come true at least on this thread.
...post will mostly fall on the deaf ears of...

... Greens, because it doesn't meet their 100% renewable energy, no nukes, no fossil fuels, tree-hugging hippie ideology

... Big business, because it would reduce their profit margins, leaving them less money for limousines, lavish dinners, multi-million dollar homes and private jets

... Conservatives, because to them, its not a 100% fix, and anything less than 100% is never worth considering (see the gun debate for further examples)

... The Far Right because, well, climate change is just a hoax.
 
...nuclear power...
That is why building a plant today is just not economical without subsidies
Funny how fossil fuels aren't held to the "without subsidies" part

We could shift those subsidies over to alternative energy sources with no net change in cost.
 
I have expressed this problem regarding AGW for years now.



That's why I wrote this Is there a technically viable and economically advantageous solution to Climate Change and what is preventing its implementation? for a conservative blog and posted parts of it here already. See #288



The Green New Deal hasn't a chance in hell of solving the problem because they are more interested in making the US a socialist state than solving AGW.



But as bad as the Democrat plan may be, the denialism from the current Republican leadership is even worse. Not only will if fail to solve the problem, it could actually make it even worse than it is already.



oh and Smartcooky's prediction @ #290 has indeed come true at least on this thread.
If they weren't in favour of implementing "socialism" would the same plan work?
 
Funny how fossil fuels aren't held to the "without subsidies" part

We could shift those subsidies over to alternative energy sources with no net change in cost.

Is subsidising fossil fuels a big thing - and if so where? I know in some countries such as Malaysia gasoline is subsidised but for coal i think the best on offer are longterm power purchase agreements which are needed to get funding.
 
This is probably wrong. The problem with CO2 is that it persists in the atmosphere for a long time. Methane doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long, it decays into CO2 in about a decade or so.

Well duh! That means it ADDS CO2 on top of the CO2 we are already pumping into the atmosphere.

To a first approximation Methane in the atmosphere only increases when emissions of Methane are increasing. IOW "equivalent CO2" should only count increases in Methane production not total respiration.

I have some news for you. Methane levels in the atmosphere ARE increasing, and rapidly. Global concentrations have risen from 722 parts per billion (ppb) in pre-industrial times to 1800 ppb by 2011, 2.5 fold increase, and it is currently at its highest value in at least 800,000 years

Methane is one of the most potent greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The 100-year global warming potential of methane is 28, which means that over a 100 year period, it traps 28 times more heat/mass unit than carbon dioxide and 32 times the effect when accounting for aerosol interactions.
 
If they weren't in favour of implementing "socialism" would the same plan work?
Socialism is the plan. Your question doesn't even make sense.

This is their plan in their words:

  • 100% of national power generation from renewable sources.
  • Building a national energy-efficient “smart” grid.
  • Upgrading every residential and industrial building for state-of-the-art energy efficiency, comfort and safety.
  • Decarbonising manufacturing, agricultural and other industries.
  • Decarbonising, repairing and improving transportation and other infrastructure.
  • Funding massive investment in the drawdown and capture of greenhouse gases.
  • Making “green” technology, industry, expertise, products and services a major export of the US, helping other countries transition to carbon-neutral economies.
  • Provide all members of society a job guarantee programme to assure a living wage job.
  • Basic income programmes and universal health care.

Notice the last two?
  • Provide all members of society a job guarantee programme to assure a living wage job.
  • Basic income programmes and universal health care.

Remember, this is THEIR words, not some biased reporting trying to undermine the plan. THEIR own words and the undermining of the plan was done by them! This is why the plan is DOA. It never stood a chance in hell of working. Even if by some insanity it should happen to be passed, the damages to the economy of the country make it impossible to actually implement!:covereyes

Scroll down to David Voxx's comments.

David Roberts of Vox on why the Democrats should push for a "Green New Deal" in Congress, even though it will never get passed.

Even they know its impossible. The purpose of it is NOT to actually solve AGW nor even pass the legislation, but only to appear a certain way so as to garner votes for the Democrats next election. Just smoke and mirrors to appear caring of the environment and inch forward the true purpose for the Democrats
  • Provide all members of society a job guarantee programme to assure a living wage job.
  • Basic income programmes and universal health care.

Now if you were to change the question to ask could their plan work if it was really attempting to reverse AGW?

1) At current technology, 100% of national power generation from renewable sources is not possible without nuclear being part of that, if we maintain the same standards of reliability. We can do a lot, but not 100%. Not yet. With Nuclear we could, but they specifically said no nuclear.

2) I suppose a energy-efficient “smart” grid is possible to an extent, but I am not exactly sure how much more efficient they think they can be. Utilities are already stretching efficiencies to the limit of real world technology. Efficiencies never reach theoretical in the real world though, so I guess there is some room for improvement.

3)Rebuilding and/or refitting every building in the United States is simply not going to happen even if it was possible. The best we can do with that is building codes for new buildings and for remodels, but grandfathered in buildings are not going to be part of that even where it is possible, simply due to costs. It is literally impossible. The country doesn't even have the manpower to convert every building in the country to state of the art any time soon, even if we could afford it.

4)We can decarbonize some manufacturing, agriculture and some other industries. But unless we actually completely change agriculture to regenerative methods, we can;t get this to a net negative or even net zero. Certainly we can't decarbonize everything 100% right now at current technology. There is a lot we can do, but that's ridiculous. The fact they included agriculture here is encouraging, unfortunately nothing in the Green New Deal even hints at the required changes to infrastructure and reductions in regulatory burden or changing of commodity markets' buffer stock schemes necessary to actually accomplish this goal. I suppose we could be generous and grant that they eventually could get around to writing those required changes down too.

5)We can start decarbonising, repairing and improving transportation and other infrastructure. But we won't be finished in my lifetime. And I don't even want to go back to a world without flight. That's ridiculous and unnecessary anyway.

6) Their massive funding in the drawdown and capture of greenhouse gases is primarily focused on future CCS technology only in its infancy and combined with biofuels BeCCS. In theory it could work, in reality it doesn't. So they are going to throw money at the problem, but it is taking 2 steps backward to go three steps forward even under the best ideal potential circumstances. In reality now, biofuels take more fossil fuels energy to produce than they offset. BeCCS is dead in the water, but luckily evolution solved that particular problem millions of years ago and BCCS does work right now at current tech. So someone needs to tell them I guess. So they don't waste throwing all that money at a problem already solved by biology. Rather they should build the infrastructure for regenerative agriculture.

7)I have no problem with investing in technology so that later we can export it for a profit. Not sure the government needs to do this though. Just handle the buffer stock schemes and the regulatory burden changes, and we citizens can handle the rest. ;)

8)9) oops Back to socialism rendering all the above financially impossible anyway, even if it could work.
 
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Literally NO-ONE from any side is saying that we have to "get rid of cows". You look and sound increasingly like a CT doing a fringe reset, continually repeating a false meme after it has been clearly debunked

From the FAQ, which is still posted on NPR's website:

"We set a goal to get to net-zero, rather than zero emissions, in 10 years because we aren't sure we can get rid of farting cows and airplanes that fast..."

Now, it may be as others have said, that the goal is to get rid of the farts (or belches) and keep the cow. But if I told you I was going to get rid of my nagging wife, would you assume that I was going to convert her to nag-free?
 
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Do you think that's AOC's motivation?
I don't speak for individuals feelings. You would need to ask directly and hope for an honest answer.

But it can be inferred logically simply from close examination of the plan, yes. No other explanation seems plausible given how unworkable the plan is.
 
Socialism is the plan.


Notice the last two?

.

Yes i see the last 2 (numbers 8 and 9)

What about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 how do they look to you?

What about 6?


The present US government isn't in favour of any of those but on my travels internationally i am slowly seeing some move towards numbers 1, 2, 3 and 7
 

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