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For me it would be less than upstanding behavior.


With no explanation, that means less than nothing. I only associate your scree name with constant annoyance from anyone I see bothering to even respond to you. Care to explain why you have this opinion?
 
Your error, Ziggurat, is thinking that I am conflating ancestry with identity.



True, but utterly irrelevant to the debate. We are also direct descendants of LUCA (Also a fact but irrelevant)



Warren is not a full blood Native American (there are in fact very few of them left), howoever that is irrelevant since I am not arguing that point.

She does, however, have Native American ancestry; proven, undeniable, scientific fact (and you, of all people, I would expect to understand the scientific truth of this)

She said her race is Native American. That isn’t just a claim of partial ancestry. That’s a claim of identity. And she isn’t. And you absolutely did conflate the two.

Oh, and in regards to the science, the DNA fragments in question are from South America. There is no evidence she has any Cherokee ancestry, as she claimed. It’s possible she does, but it has never been established. That’s the scientific truth, since you’re so keen on that.
 
With no explanation, that means less than nothing. I only associate your scree name with constant annoyance from anyone I see bothering to even respond to you. Care to explain why you have this opinion?

I'm a skeptic. Unsubstantiated family stories at the time definitely doesn't meet the standard to start asserting something about myself.
 
She said her race is Native American.

On paperwork from 1986... 33 years ago.....

That isn’t just a claim of partial ancestry. That’s a claim of identity.

....at a time when "cultural identity" wasn't even a thing, and at a time when American racists insisted that 'just one drop of non-white blood made you forever a darkie'.

Conservative racists like Trump and his hangers-on can't have it both ways, (tarring a person with race with "just one drop", and at the same time denying a person's blood heritage because they don't have enough blood) by simply flip-flopping to conveniently fit their preferred narrative.

I hold the philosophy that in many circumstances, the past is another country where things are done differently. What I am doing is judging her for what she did THEN in the environment of THAT time. What you are doing is judging her for what she did THEN in the environment of TODAY.

And she isn’t.

Her family history says otherwise.

And you absolutely did conflate the two.

And I absolutely did not. I am talking genealogy.... and ONLY genealogy. Cultural identity has nothing whatsoever to with genealogy.

Oh, and in regards to the science, the DNA fragments in question are from South America.

Half truth - they were from Mexico, Peru and Colombia - populations in the Americas with high Native American genetic ancestry.

If you have any understanding of the science you would realise that it is standard practice to use South or Central American DNA to test for Native American ancestry. This is because only people in Mesoamerica, South America and in parts of New Mexico have ever been DNA tested. The Inuit, Iroquois, Cherokee, Creek, Powhatan, Montauk, Sioux, Comanche, Miwok, Athabaskans and Algonquins et al, have never been tested. The result of this is that the genetic picture of the entire indigenous North American continent is missing.

So why is SA/CA Native DNA used? Because SA/CA Natives are descended from NA Natives, so some of their DNA sources by descent from NA Natives. If you compare your DNA with a SA/CA Native (and you can eliminate with reasonable certainty any possibility that you have an unknown SA/CA Native anywhere in your family tree), then any SA/CA DNA found in your samples means it is highly likely that you have North American Native ancestry... it the only place that DNA could reasonably come from.

In Warren's case, the test identified five genetic segments with 99 per cent confidence, as being associated with Native American ancestry. The largest segment identified was on Chromosome 10, the long segment of which indicated that the DNA came from a relatively recent, single ancestor, in the sixth generation - living around the mid-1800s, which directly correlates with Warren's family lore. It could also mean that she may have more ancestors back to the 10th generation, although this scenario is less likely.

I would have expected you to understand all this too.

There is no evidence she has any Cherokee ancestry, as she claimed. It’s possible she does, but it has never been established.

Again, hardly surprising, since it is, at this time, impossible to determine tribal blood ancestry - you are criticising a lack of evidence where such evidence is actually not possible to obtain. The DNA test supports her family history claim. Besides which her family story makes no mention of South American ancestors.

***

I find it remarkable that all this BS character assassination from the Stupidati on the political right goes on over a 30 year old error of judgement, yet the the very same Stupidati just look the other way when Trump tells pants-on-fire lies to American public, denying his business ties to Russia when he was in fact up to his neck in Russia.
 
On paperwork from 1986... 33 years ago.....
....at a time when "cultural identity" wasn't even a thing

:eek:

, and at a time when American racists insisted that 'just one drop of non-white blood made you forever a darkie'.

In 1986? The One-Drop Rule certainly had few adherents by then, and no effective on law.

Conservative racists like Trump and his hangers-on can't have it both ways, (tarring a person with race with "just one drop", and at the same time denying a person's blood heritage because they don't have enough blood) by simply flip-flopping to conveniently fit their preferred narrative.

Who the hell (including Trump) is tarring anybody with race with "just one drop?" And what does tarring anybody with race mean anyway?
 
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eek yerself

Cultral-Identity-ngram.png


Like I said "cultural identity wasn't even a thing in the 1980s, at least, not yet. It was just beginning to be a publicly recognized phrase mostly on the fringes of discussion. It became a more popular one along with the rise of neo-liberalism after the post-war period of Keynesian economics which lasted to about 1980. The phrase is of course, a much more recognised one now, but back then, if you were to mention "cultural identity", most people's response would be along the lines of "WTF does that mean?"

In 1986? The One-Drop Rule certainly had few adherents by then, and no effective on law.

If you don't think there are plenty of racists who still believe this, then you don't get out much.

Who the hell (including Trump) is tarring anybody with race with "just one drop?" And what does tarring anybody with race mean anyway?

Its the white supremacist kreed; only the pure white blooded are pure white. Any monkey blood coursing in your veins makes you a monkey.
 
That's... not actually an argument.

It seems to me like you just don't want to accept that your view of your identity is not the same thing as other people's. The argument I'm making is that yes, many people define part of their identity by their ancestry even when it's distant. That you don't do that is irrelevant to the question of whether it's likely that Warren did.

I don't care if you want to claim the impact is daily, weekly, monthly, or even yearly. But the entire premise of identity politics is that there's a significant and external impact.

We're talking about identity, not identity politics.
 
She said her race is Native American. That isn’t just a claim of partial ancestry. That’s a claim of identity.

Why do you feel you are entitled to just make things up? Either show us some evidence this paperwork was asking for exclusive ancestor or identity or retract this.
 
I don't see the argument for Warren claiming Native American ethnicity in a professional context as being acceptable. In the context of the time, where affirmative action was very much a thing and there was tremendous interest in promoting the prospects underrepresented ethnic groups, claiming unqualified NA ancestry in a professional context is misguided at best, willful fraud at worst.

It's one thing to say, "oh, we sometimes cook Native American dishes at home sometimes, our great great whatever was part Cherokee, donchaknow?". Claiming "Native American" as your ancestry in a professional context is another.

Warren is a white woman from a white family with insignificant ancestral trivia. She is not an ethnic minority and should never present herself as one in a professional context, which is becoming increasingly clear she did. She should have known better. Even if she never benefited explicitly, I question the judgement of someone who would even muddle the waters in this way.
 
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David Bernstein, former Chairman of the AALS, the group that published the minority directory, says that the directory was for minorities looking to get hired by a law school.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120504...l/view/20220502law_prof_warrens_boast_an_edge
Bernstein reported on Sunday that beginning in 1986 and continuing through 1995, Warren had listed herself as a minority professor in the Association of American Law Schools desk book.

“That appendix strikes me as obviously allowing people to announce themselves as being members of minority groups in case people are looking for such members for whatever reason,” Bernstein said.

For her to say she didn't use it to get ahead will have exactly the same effect as Hillary saying she didn't email classified info.
 
She said her race is Native American. That isn’t just a claim of partial ancestry. That’s a claim of identity. And she isn’t. And you absolutely did conflate the two.

Why do you feel you are entitled to just make things up? Either show us some evidence this paperwork was asking for exclusive ancestor or identity or retract this.
I'm at a loss to understand this post. On the form, she specified her race as "American Indian". This was not an essay question where you list your marginal ancestry. If you want to nitpick over "identity", whatever, but the notion that Ziggurat made these things up is positively surreal.
 
Why do you feel you are entitled to just make things up? Either show us some evidence this paperwork was asking for exclusive ancestor or identity or retract this.

I never said exclusive ancestry. But what do you think race means? Do you think Warren believes in the one drop rule? If she were 1/16th Native American ancestry and 15/16th English ancestry, is she Native American or is she Caucasian? If she's been living a life indistinguishable from someone who is 100% Caucasian (and aside from the title of a cookbook she submitted a plagiarized recipe to, she was), how can the answer be anything other than Caucasian?

As I said, this entire episode is exposing identity politics as a complete and total fraud.
 
Why do you feel you are entitled to just make things up? Either show us some evidence this paperwork was asking for exclusive ancestor or identity or retract this.

Okay seriously what is the narrative here? Elizabeth Warren never told the university about her Native American ancestry in any "official" capacity and they just pulled from the aether or took something a student said in passing about... whatever "oh Warren treated her ancestry as just a bit of personal trivia" version of this people are trying to create and they ran with it? Neither of those make sense.

If the university was aware of Elizabeth Warren's claim of Native American ancestry I think it's perfectly reasonable to just assume she told them in some official manner for some reason beyond "Oh here's a little tidbit about me."

There's a place for race on a college application form, not one for "Oh could you please share any interesting stories about your ancestors we think we'd just love to know about."
 
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I don't see the argument for Warren claiming Native American ethnicity in a professional context as being acceptable. In the context of the time, where affirmative action was very much a thing and there was tremendous interest in promoting the prospects underrepresented ethnic groups, claiming unqualified NA ancestry in a professional context is misguided at best, willful fraud at worst.

It's one thing to say, "oh, we sometimes cook Native American dishes at home sometimes, our great great whatever was part Cherokee, donchaknow?". Claiming "Native American" as your ancestry in a professional context is another.

Warren is a white woman from a white family with insignificant ancestral trivia. She is not an ethnic minority and should never present herself as one in a professional context, which is becoming increasingly clear she did. She should have known better. Even if she never benefited explicitly, I question the judgement of someone who would even muddle the waters in this way.
Excellent post.

Unfortunately, it's not just her choices from the past that are troubling. Current times, she's handled the whole thing from a defensive posture that suggests an internal fragility that won't cut it in a general election. We can't afford this risk, given the existential threat that Trump presents.

I wish this wasn't the case. I like her. I wish she could be POTUS. It's not going to happen.
 
I wish this wasn't the case. I like her. I wish she could be POTUS. It's not going to happen.

It's a modern Western Democracy version of the Game of Thrones moral; it would be a much better world if the people who are good at getting into power and the people who are good at ruling are the same people. Sadly we do not always live in that world.
 
Excellent post.

Unfortunately, it's not just her choices from the past that are troubling. Current times, she's handled the whole thing from a defensive posture that suggests an internal fragility that won't cut it in a general election. We can't afford this risk, given the existential threat that Trump presents.

I wish this wasn't the case. I like her. I wish she could be POTUS. It's not going to happen.
I agree. She is sunk, and that depresses me.
I would have liked to vote for her for POTUS.
 
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