In it till the Rapture!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yup, I think This Is The End has summed it up.

when talking about "the Rapture" in these terms, like you, I would think that's supposed to be imminent, or at least within a lifetime.

believing in a day of judgement is not the same.

Since when does the Bible say on the Day of Judgement believers will be raptured and the rest of us not?

Hint: The Rapture is not in the Bible.

I'm pretty sure there is something in Revelations about Jesus returning and ruling over the Earth for a 1,000 years or something, but the details in my memory are fuzzy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And you know this, how?

Well, if they believe in the rapture at all they have to either believe it's going to happen or else it's already happened. There aren't a lot of options unless you're going to credit rapture-believing evangelicals with theories about multiverses and quantum time.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sigh, I have to look up everything for you guys.

This survey looks decent:

60% is not the vast majority or whatever the initial post in this exchange said.

Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.

The survey was based on responses from nearly 2,200 evangelical leaders at the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization – a global gathering of 4,500 evangelical leaders from over 190 nations that was held last fall in Cape Town, South Africa.

Apparently in sub-Saharan-Africa the number is 82%.

Evangelical leaders from sub-Saharan Africa were the most likely to believe in the Rapture, with 82 percent subscribing to this End Times belief.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, if they believe in the rapture at all they have to either believe it's going to happen or else it's already happened. There aren't a lot of options unless you're going to credit rapture-believing evangelicals with theories about multiverses and quantum time.

I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Sigh, I have to look up everything for you guys.

Or just read what was already looked up for you since that's already been cited.

60% is not the vast majority or whatever the initial post in this exchange said.

But Rapture believers? I would have thought that's an extreme element within the Evangelical crowd. Perhaps I should reconsider.

So what do you think now?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So much cross talk all over interpreting 60%.

I didn't see sphensic posted the link already.

Then I replied to this:

The vast majority of evangelicals believe the rapture will happen at some point in the future.

TITE thought the issue was over whether the belief was in one's lifetime or not. That was not the issue. "The vast majority" was the issue.

Next RY said TITE was right. But somewhere upthread RY's issue was whether the Rapture was an extreme fringe.

As for Evangelicals, clearly it's not the fringe among them. As for Christians I'd say it's a fringe but the Evangelicals are rapidly a growing sect.


Bottom line 60% is not a vast majority. And I suppose it's also not the small fringe of a group.

 

[bruto]

What makes you think the sort of person who would get raptured would even have any stuff you'd want? DVD box set of "The Waltons", perhaps, if they even have a DVD player. No alcohol, no sex toys, no porn. Possibly not even soda. They're not people who have Grand Theft Auto, a freezer bag full of coke, and a collection of exciting leather costumes is what I'm getting at. These are people who are too boring to get into Hell.

No, but some of them are likely to have some useful stuff. My wife's ex was, for example, a Jehovah's Witnless (really really into the rapture!), and aside from requiring that they wear suits and some of that stuff, they also apparently were really down on rusty cars, as well as weird foreign and non-middle-class stuff, so all the JW's you meet have nice reliable late model cars. When they all get swept up you can house your chickens in a fleet of late model minivans, and go corn cruising in a Grand Marquis. Taxi drivers love these things. Not to mention nice clean refrigerators and washing machines and stuff. I'd be inclined to sell it all cheap and buy camera equipment and power tools that I don't need, but down your way you're welcome to spend yours on sex toys and porn.

Just like Groucho who said he wouldn't want to join a club that would have him as a member, I figure the raffish underclass should make out like bandits when the saints go marching out.

 

[eerok]

I could really dig some old cast iron stuff. Griswold is awesome. Enamel is okay, too -- I like Le Creuset and Staub. Knives: I'm partial to Wusthof, but there's some really nice Japanese stuff I'd consider.

I mean, since you're being lifted into Heaven anyway.

 

[Resume]

What makes you think the sort of person who would get raptured would even have any stuff you'd want? DVD box set of "The Waltons", perhaps, if they even have a DVD player. No alcohol, no sex toys, no porn. Possibly not even soda. They're not people who have Grand Theft Auto, a freezer bag full of coke, and a collection of exciting leather costumes is what I'm getting at. These are people who are too boring to get into Hell.

I dunno about that. Our local mega-church evangelicals in their 25 room castle knockoffs have six car garages that hold oodles of interesting ****. ****, a local pastor just resigned in disgrace due to a hookers and blow incident. I'm beginning to think these folks are a bunch of phonies.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I doubt that most megachurch attendees would qualify for the Rapture.

 

[Resume]

I doubt that most megachurch attendees would qualify for the Rapture.

No one does.

 

[bruto]

Well, I hope we're not all mistaken. I'd hate to be all ready to kick back and enjoy a cool cuppa left-behind brew and suddenly be informed that owing to a clerical error I'm off to strum with the seraphim.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.

I thought you were arguing with the bolded bit of the post you quoted. It seemed a silly thing to argue, but I've read your posts on religious topics before so I thought I'd ask for clarification.

As to Biblicicity, not every denomination of Christianity insists on pulling all parts of its theology solely from the Bible, even the branches that revere the book to an excessive degree. In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.

Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality, angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels. And Tolkien never wrote that his Elves had pointed ears, but you don't see many adaptations omitting them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I thought you were arguing with the bolded bit of the post you quoted. It seemed a silly thing to argue, but I've read your posts on religious topics before so I thought I'd ask for clarification.

As to Biblicicity, not every denomination of Christianity insists on pulling all parts of its theology solely from the Bible, even the branches that revere the book to an excessive degree. In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.

Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality, angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels. And Tolkien never wrote that his Elves had pointed ears, but you don't see many adaptations omitting them.

I was arguing with "vast majority". I'll have to go back and look at what 'bold' you are talking about.

Re inconsistency among Christians, choir here.


Edited to add: that was ThisIsTheEnd's bold. I can see the confusion, I added my bold to the quote but left the other bold in.

 

[Darat]

I think you lost something in translation.

I don't care what they believe about 'when' it's going to happen. The Rapture is a very specific event and again, not in the Bible AFAIK.

What's it got to do about it being in the bible or not?

 

[sphenisc]

Since when does the Bible say on the Day of Judgement believers will be raptured and the rest of us not?

It doesn't.

Hint: The Rapture is not in the Bible.

It is.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

... In fact, very few sorts of Christianity are solely Bible-based, there's just not enough material in there to supply an entire theology. You need the collected writings and commentaries of other people on what they've read in the Bible, then the commentaries on the commentaries, and eventually it builds up into an established tradition and full-fledged mythos. Since very few sorts of Christianity claim to be solely Bible-based this isn't a problem for anyone else.

Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.

Other things non-Biblical but mainstream: Satan being an individual personality.

Matthew 4:1-11

...angels being humanoids with wings, and dead humans becoming angels...

Not doctrines of any Evangelical churches I've encountered.

 

[Solitaire]

Can we have their stuff?

Not really.

Oh, one could go through the formal process of writing out a contract
specifying that on the date of the rapture you get their car, house, money,
and all sorts of other property. But show them this document and they
won't sign it. They're just going through the motions of their religion —
I think they call it witnessing of their deeply held beliefs — similar to self
flagellation with nerf whips.

 

[Darat]

It doesn't.


It is.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17



Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.


Matthew 4:1-11


Not doctrines of any Evangelical churches I've encountered.

Sola scriptura still relies on the scriptures being interpreted by people and surprisingly you still find the same mix and match approach as you would in say a catholic church. All that differs is that they will claim that X means Y because that is what they want it to mean and will quote a Bible source, whereas other Christians can say X means Y because the church said so.

In other words what ever source they claim is infallible will support what ever they want.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Sola scriptura is commonplace doctrine amongst Protestant denominations. No idea why you think there are very few.

Probably because I haven't encountered many Protestant denominations who don't draw anything from Martin Luther or John Calvin. Salvation through grace alone and predestination are two theological beliefs invented outside the Bible, although they based their theories on selected quotations from the Bible. That doesn't make them purely Biblical. It's outside extrapolation.

Good luck finding Protestants who don't draw anything from Protestantism! Even the really weird later branches like the charismatics and snake-handlers had their own radical theologians and even prophets.

 

[The Greater Fool]

No, but some of them are likely to have some useful stuff. My wife's ex was, for example, a Jehovah's Witnless (really really into the rapture!), and aside from requiring that they wear suits and some of that stuff, they also apparently were really down on rusty cars, as well as weird foreign and non-middle-class stuff, so all the JW's you meet have nice reliable late model cars. When they all get swept up you can house your chickens in a fleet of late model minivans, and go corn cruising in a Grand Marquis. Taxi drivers love these things. Not to mention nice clean refrigerators and washing machines and stuff. I'd be inclined to sell it all cheap and buy camera equipment and power tools that I don't need, but down your way you're welcome to spend yours on sex toys and porn.

Just like Groucho who said he wouldn't want to join a club that would have him as a member, I figure the raffish underclass should make out like bandits when the saints go marching out.

Highlighted: No, JWs definitively and vocally disbelieve "the rapture." They do believe a specific number (144k) will serve in heaven after they die. At Armageddon, the current wicked will be killed, the faithful will live, and the previous dead will be resurrected. Then a 1000 year test, and the failures die and the faithful will live forever on Earth.

Nope, no Rapture for them.

The rest of your post seems more like generic hatred which may be tied more to your ex than JWs.

For the record, I was raised a JW and bailed when I was 23. JWs have some crazy beliefs, but the Rapture is not one of them.