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Theory of Evolution vs. Process of Evolution

Should this be how we start debating the ID'ers?

  • yes

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • no

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

HeyLeroy

Vegan Cannibal
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
5,567
Let me admit that I inferred controversy in the title of this thread to attract as many viewings as possible. I'm not trying to set up some steel-cage death-match kumite between rival groups, just some attention-whoring for my idea.

Seeing as how many ID'ers concede ever-so-slightly to the concept of 'micro-evolution' being somewhat possible, and also harping on the 'it's only a theory' angle, let's take away some of their leverage.

Let's start explaining that the process of evolution is what happens, and the theory is how it is explained.

I know this seems like semantics, but who knows? To someone who's sitting on the fence in all this it might make a little more sense to them this way.

what does everyone think?
 
Let me admit that I inferred controversy in the title of this thread to attract as many viewings as possible. I'm not trying to set up some steel-cage death-match kumite between rival groups, just some attention-whoring for my idea.

Seeing as how many ID'ers concede ever-so-slightly to the concept of 'micro-evolution' being somewhat possible, and also harping on the 'it's only a theory' angle, let's take away some of their leverage.

Let's start explaining that the process of evolution is what happens, and the theory is how it is explained.

I know this seems like semantics, but who knows? To someone who's sitting on the fence in all this it might make a little more sense to them this way.

what does everyone think?
I think it is a great idea and it is correct as I understand evolution. I'm certain someone will find an objection but at the moment I can't think of one.
 
The distinction is certainly important. In particular,* Minsky has used the process of evolution to word the Theorem of Evolution:
The Process of Evolution is the following abstract idea:

There is a population of things that reproduce, at different rates in different environments. Those rates depend, statistically, on a collection of inheritable traits. Those traits are subject to occasional mutations, some of which are then inherited.

Then one can deduce, from logic alone, without any need for evidence, that:

THEOREM: Each population will tend to increase the proportion of traits that have higher reproduction rates in its current environment.
Emphasis mine.

~~ Paul

* Yes, yes, again.
 
If I understand your plan correctly, the idea is basically to concede that the theory of how it happens is "just a theory", so it becomes easier for them to accept the fact that species actually evolve - since they already accept micro-evolution.

From my experience with creationists their main issue is they would rather <insert something really, really nasty> than admit they share a common ancestor with any non-human species. Basically, it's a matter of ego for them.

I base this claim on two observations:
1) When debating an inexperienced creastionist they'll sometimes have a slip of the tongue: "I just can't imagine we've descended from apes.".
2) If a creationist knows almost nothing about evolution, the one thing they do know is that it claims humans are descended from other animals.

In other words, their problem isn't with the theory of how species evolve, but with the fact that it actually happened. Therefore, I don't think your idea would have any effect.
 
I usually distinguish it by referring to evolution as an observable process, while calling the 'theory' part the 'evolutionary model for biodiversity' or 'evolutionary model for speciation'. Organisms change from generation to generation; even creationists agree with this. It's an observation that has been made. We can use this observation, in conjunction with fossil records and other observations, to create a model stating how life on this planet became diverse with time.

Athon
 
If I understand your plan correctly, the idea is basically to concede that the theory of how it happens is "just a theory", so it becomes easier for them to accept the fact that species actually evolve - since they already accept micro-evolution.

From my experience with creationists their main issue is they would rather <insert something really, really nasty> than admit they share a common ancestor with any non-human species. Basically, it's a matter of ego for them.

I base this claim on two observations:
1) When debating an inexperienced creastionist they'll sometimes have a slip of the tongue: "I just can't imagine we've descended from apes.".
2) If a creationist knows almost nothing about evolution, the one thing they do know is that it claims humans are descended from other animals.

In other words, their problem isn't with the theory of how species evolve, but with the fact that it actually happened. Therefore, I don't think your idea would have any effect.

Not really. I'm starting to like this quote more and more:

"Theory

Most people use the word theory to mean uncertainty, guesswork, or a rough idea, but in science it has a different meaning. A scientific theory explains facts or phenomena that have been shown to be true by repeated independent tests and experiments. An educated guess in science is called a hypothesis.

Scientific theories are not laws, which describe phenomena thought to be invariable. Theories are generally used to describe why certain laws work. For example, the law of gravity is known to be true for falling bodies, but how and why it works is explained by Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity. Einstein's theory was accepted as true only after repeated experimentation and observation. Yet not even laws are absolute. They are rarely overturned, but they may be amended should new data warrant it."

--Maia Weinstock

Not a lot of people understand that 'theory' in science is different than 'theory' on CSI:Miami. That version is really a hypothesis, a word that needs greater exposure.

I just want to take the emphasis off of the word 'theory'. I mean, really, we can't even say that the debate is between the 'theory of evolution' and the 'hypothesis of intelligent design' because it ain't even a hypothesis.

I feel that, by referring to the process of evolution in any situation where opinions can be swayed from the ID camp, it sounds less vague. More real.

I agree on the matter of ego that you raise. I mean, it's really a philosophical question that doesn't belong in a science classroom. According to their belief, god is so perfect that he (or she) is completely undetectable and untestable. Period. There is absolutely no way for us to design a 'test to determine god'.

Which makes me question, why do they so crave the stink of respectability from the scientific community? I would think that this would be a sign that their faith is weak. To believe in whatever god or gods you choose despite the mountains of scientific facts should be worn as a badge of honour among the religious communities, I would think.

Also, you could point out that evolutionary theory doesn't say that we descended from apes, but that we share a common ancestor. I'd think that if apes grasped the concept they'd be pretty revulsed to think that we evolved from them.

Or you could point out that the bible says that we were created from dust, or some translations say slime. Which is more humbling?
 
I usually distinguish it by referring to evolution as an observable process, while calling the 'theory' part the 'evolutionary model for biodiversity' or 'evolutionary model for speciation'. Organisms change from generation to generation; even creationists agree with this. It's an observation that has been made. We can use this observation, in conjunction with fossil records and other observations, to create a model stating how life on this planet became diverse with time.

Athon

I like that!
 
The distinction is certainly important. In particular,* Minsky has used the process of evolution to word the Theorem of Evolution:

The Process of Evolution is the following abstract idea:

There is a population of things that reproduce, at different rates in different environments. Those rates depend, statistically, on a collection of inheritable traits. Those traits are subject to occasional mutations, some of which are then inherited.

Then one can deduce, from logic alone, without any need for evidence, that:

THEOREM: Each population will tend to increase the proportion of traits that have higher reproduction rates in its current environment.

Emphasis mine.

~~ Paul

* Yes, yes, again.

I like this, too!

My only qualm is that they're just so... wordy. In this sound-byte age we can count on a lot of glossed-over eyes, and that's a shame. We need to hook 'em while they're young, so kids'll have a strong foundation of critical thinking instead of basing their lives on fairy tales.
 
I like this, too!

My only qualm is that they're just so... wordy. In this sound-byte age we can count on a lot of glossed-over eyes, and that's a shame. We need to hook 'em while they're young, so kids'll have a strong foundation of critical thinking instead of basing their lives on fairy tales.

You'd be surprised how much kids do actually understand. The problem is, many teachers underestimate them, or don't understand it themselves.

I teach my low level year 7's about 'models' and theories, and they get it just fine.

Athon
 
I feel that, by referring to the process of evolution in any situation where opinions can be swayed from the ID camp, it sounds less vague. More real.
Unfortunately, that doesn't adress the fundamental reason why creationists reject evolution. As long as you're in some way implying humans are descended from non-human animals, they just won't accept it.
Basically, creationists are obsessed with maintaining their entire beliefsystem. Being god's special project is one part of that.
I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but that's a point of view creationists don't share. Perhaps discussing it is the best way to convince fence-sitters.
 
As long as you're in some way implying humans are descended from non-human animals, they just won't accept it.
And that's one thing I'll probably never understand. So what if I'm a monkey's nephew?
 
Unfortunately, that doesn't adress the fundamental reason why creationists reject evolution. As long as you're in some way implying humans are descended from non-human animals, they just won't accept it.
Basically, creationists are obsessed with maintaining their entire beliefsystem. Being god's special project is one part of that.
I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but that's a point of view creationists don't share. Perhaps discussing it is the best way to convince fence-sitters.

I agree 100%. Just last week I attended a 'lecture' that turned out to be a sermon by a microbiologist who rejects evolution. There were about 80 people in attendance, and I think I was the only one present who doesn't attend their church. We're talkin' hard-core YEC'ers here and I was getting serious Children-of-the-corn willies. The older folks in attendance I put down to being 'stuck in their ways', the youngsters as being brainwashed. But those in the 25-40 age bracket I can only assume have some sort of low-level brain damage. I'm not trying to be facetious, I truly suspect this.

My point is exactly that: let's make the discussion a little more reasonable to the fence-sitters. Refer to it as the process of evolution, and if some wacko tries the 'it's only a theory' gambit, explain that the theory explains the process and isn't just a guess, or hypothesis. Then throw in that ID ain't even a hypothesis, as it doesn't give anyone anything to test. It just says evolution doesn't happen because it interferes with their personal philosophy.

(edited because i didn't capitalise an i)
 
And that's one thing I'll probably never understand. So what if I'm a monkey's nephew?

Doubtful, because brass monkeys are likely related to bronze ones, and they're highly susceptible to having their b@lls frozen off!
 
Well, if we're really worried about semantics, we could just start referring to natural selection as "Darwin's Law of natural selection". That way it's no longer "just a theory." Punctuated equilibrium could be referred to as a corollary of this law so that Creationists will have a harder time mischaracterizing it. I'm sure you can keep going along this line to handle the rest of the classic erroneous creationist/ID claims that are based on purely semantic arguments.
 
Well, if we're really worried about semantics, we could just start referring to natural selection as "Darwin's Law of natural selection". That way it's no longer "just a theory." Punctuated equilibrium could be referred to as a corollary of this law so that Creationists will have a harder time mischaracterizing it. I'm sure you can keep going along this line to handle the rest of the classic erroneous creationist/ID claims that are based on purely semantic arguments.


I'm not concerned so much with the semantics as I am with making the concept more accessible.
 
And that's one thing I'll probably never understand. So what if I'm a monkey's nephew?
If you are a monkey's nephew, then you (and all mankind) evolved from monkeys by "accident" or at "random" or by "natural" selection, processes, or causes. If that's the case, then you (and all mankind) just happened to come about and for no purpose (other than perhaps mere survival).

However, if you (and all mankind) were created by God, then God created you (and all mankind) for a purpose. You now have a purpose and life has meaning. God gives meaning to life. If you take away God as the creator of man, you are taking away these people's purpose and meaning of life. Even if it a based on woo-woo-what-not, that's something tough to give up.

Going with a "process" of evolution seems a good way to go. The evidence of the "process" of evolution is overwhelming enough that many God believers accept the process, but to reconcile losing personal meaning and purpose, reject the "natural selection" type "theory" and take the fence post position that God guide the evolution process.

That seems a bit schizophrenic to me. But if it make people comfortable in their own skin, then it doesn’t matter much whether you say the process is driven by God or just naturally happens. Of course the process can be driven without a driver, but if you choose not to apply Occham’s razor, you can fit God in there if you want.

Science describes the way things are, and not so much WHY they are. It doesn’t mater much. It would be like an evolutionist arguing with an IDer over whether the reason “a body in motion tends to stay in motion” and “matter cannot be created or destroyed” is because it is a natural for bodies and matter to simply be the way they are versus it is because God made it that way.

Who cares? Bodies stay in motion because there is nothing to make them NOT do that. Matter is not created or destroyed because there is nothing to make it NOT do that. Reproductive organisims that can survive and reporduce and those that can’t don’t because there is nothing to make them NOT do that. You could say it is because of God (or anything really), but you don’t have to. But you can. Doesn’t matter much.

So, yes. Go with the process. Who cares about the theory. The theory is a no-brainer anyway because it is self eveident. But if people feel happier with the razor gone to say that God guides the evolution process (or causes electrons to be negatively charged, or makes matter have gravity, or whatever) then do it.
 
Let me admit that I inferred controversy in the title of this thread to attract as many viewings as possible. I'm not trying to set up some steel-cage death-match kumite between rival groups, just some attention-whoring for my idea.
[NITPICK]
Didn't you mean implied:)
[/NITPICK]

Seeing as how many ID'ers concede ever-so-slightly to the concept of 'micro-evolution' being somewhat possible, and also harping on the 'it's only a theory' angle, let's take away some of their leverage.

Let's start explaining that the process of evolution is what happens, and the theory is how it is explained.

I know this seems like semantics, but who knows? To someone who's sitting on the fence in all this it might make a little more sense to them this way.

what does everyone think?
I agree, but I wanted to vote:

On Planet X, IDers are exiled to the Barren Zone. :D

Dave
 
The distinction is certainly important. In particular,* Minsky has used the process of evolution to word the Theorem of Evolution:

Emphasis mine.

~~ Paul

* Yes, yes, again.

(I'm not sure if I can quote a quote with a quote in it, so I hope this has worked!)

I disagree with Minsky (not a phrase I've used very often) in that the statement "deduce, from logic alone" is basically equivalent to "then a miracle happens" in the famous cartoon. My response is the same - "you need to be more explicit at step two."
 

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