• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

Satanism is in a weird area of belief, because odd as it may seem, many Satanists do take it seriously. As seriously as Christians.

Agreed. However, from the links, it appears that this particular sect of Satanism does not.

What links are you reading? Their sculptures are too amazing to be created by non-serious people. Did you look at their website? Watch the interview? They are very serious. I hope your karma isn't damaged by careless mocking. You should take a selfie and then see if there is a black mark near your head. I'd get my affairs in order if there is.
 
Respectable religious leaders never use stage names. Ask Pope Francis.

Or the Dali Llama. Or Mahatma Gandhi. Or Pope Hilarius.

I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to tell how that's difference because they were obviously being super-serious and sincere about the whole thing.
 
Respectable religious leaders never use stage names. Ask Pope Francis.

Luka Slectriks would have been funnier (and really hammered the point home). That's all I'm saying.





ETA: "Get home before dark ..."
 
Last edited:
Or the Dali Llama. Or Mahatma Gandhi. Or Pope Hilarius.

I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to tell how that's difference because they were obviously being super-serious and sincere about the whole thing.

Slightly off-topic, but was Gandhi a religious leader? I've always though of him as more of a social activist. Also 'Mahatma' was an honorific, rather than a change of name. His name was actually Gandhi.
 
No. Even if we presume the rationale/motivation of both groups is the same (which is wrong, but not what I talking about), the actions taken in response to that rationale/motivation are hugely different between the groups.

Yes. That's correct. But we weren't talking about their actions, so I don't know where you are going with that? It is the rationale that is identical: being a church, they get a legal pass on religious expression grounds.

Also wrong. They ARE a religious group - just one that believes in a metaphorical rather than supposedly concrete deific entity. Compare to Buddhism.

Watch the video provided by Senex a couple posts up. The co-founder subtly acknowledges that it is the legal angles of being a church that they find convenient for their purposes.

Their philosophy is entirely secular, and an intellectual stance. Good for them. They are still not a religion in any meaningful way.
 
Slightly off-topic, but was Gandhi a religious leader? I've always though of him as more of a social activist. Also 'Mahatma' was an honorific, rather than a change of name.

Eerrr grey area. Mahatma directly translates to something like "Great Soul" and is functional similar to Saint, someone to be honored rather than someone in a position of authority.
 
If I understand your position, it is that:

The majority of Christians put up their decorations to show their joy and sincerity in their beliefs, and not to be exclusive of, or put down other religions.

Yes, mostly. But I don't think many do it to show sincerity. Most I think do it in celebration of the season, just like the seculars.

The Satanists, on the other hand, have made up a set of beliefs and imagery out of whole cloth. These beliefs are not designed to represent their actual beliefs, but specifically to give the finger to Christians.

Again, close. I think their beliefs are genuine, and sound. Their public persona is a put-on, for various reasons (legal angles, edginess, etc).

And although you have no problem with their right to do so and would actually defend that right, you think they are actually hurting their cause by being dicks by purposely taking a dump in the punchbowl, as it were.

In the OP case, pretty much. They are right to challenge christian cultural dominance. They are not so wise to throw that in the faces of celebrants who are maybe just taking their kids to see the holiday lights. This puts them in the position of being killjoys. Picture the moms with their kids: 'see the pretty tree? Ooooh, look at the lights! Oh, there's a snakey handy thing. That's put there by some creepy people.' I don't think many people are going to spark a socio-political debate about religious expression and cultural dominance when they are looking at the holiday lights.

If that's a fair representation of your position, then I largely agree.

All except the part about them hurting their own cause. I think that some people will certainly feel that way, but perhaps not all. And I think that's the reason to do it, and to do it this situation.

Christians (some at least) have been taking advantage of being the dominate belief in this country. Deliberately or not they have been trampling on the rights of minority beliefs to a greater or lessor extant since the beginning. They've assumed they always had the right to use public property for their religious purposes but have fought against others. They've assumed their holidays should be the government's holidays and have fought against others. They've assumed their prayers should be used in government meetings and fought against others. And so on. This may be better in recent years (I believe it is) but it does still go on.

That's a good point. I think for many christians, both nominal and devout, they don't even realize how deeply entrenched their way of life is in the public sphere. They may have fought against others in the past, but during my lifetime, I only see the welcoming and inclusiveness. My current town is something ridiculous like 93% white Irish-Catholic. There is a big lighted public Menorah, though. I seriously doubt a single Jewish family lives here.

The Satanists are trying to point out this continuing suppression of minority rights. And there is no "good" time to do it. When was the good time to sit at the front of the bus? When was the good time to sue for marriage equality? When was the good time to march and protest for equality in housing, jobs, and education?

You do it when you can get some eyeballs on it and then hope you get at least some people thinking. And that will always be a bad time in someone's eyes. But hopefully not all.

Yeah, I get your point. but these guys don't seem to be doing that, if Senex's video and linked website are any example. They have specific social agendas they are pushing, all actually pretty standard fare, women's right to choose and other progressive causes, that they are using the religious angle to create new exemptions for. I applaud working the system for a good end. But I'm still not on board with anything about this particular sect being a religion. The Church of Satan (different group), maaaaaaybe. Mostly posers, I think.


I think my bottom line is that for many christians/seculars, the feeling of the season is inclusive. Mommy and daddy taking the kids to see the lights aren't the ones trying to force their religion on others; hell, many don't even do religion at home. So the Satanists' challenges seem more like just trying to take something away from the revelers. Importantly, the ones celebrating are not necessarily the ones pushing the cultural dominance. They are just having fun. And that is my time and place issue with the snakey handy thing. Their message will be falling on deaf, or at least the wrong, ears. While people are giving money to charities and exchanging gifts, some guy in a goat head telling them all to stop is not going to be given a fair hearing. Poor timing.
 
I empathize, Thermal. I really do*. It's the same with me and The ******* Flying Spaghetti Monster! One gaze upon his noodily appendage has convinced me that he's really just a cephalopod masquerading as plate of spaghetti and worse still, he's been boiled in the same pot for at least three days! No fake pasta god of mine is going to be anything but Al Dente!

Careful. Talking about noodly appendages is what got me in this mess. :)

*I would humbly suggest that if you wait another 15 days or so the stridency of this thread would probably come down a notch or two. I have noticed that this time of the year traditionally gets the ISF'ers all riled up ... for some reason

Is that what it is? Serious question. I wouldv'e thought skeptics to be pretty level headed. They get all overcome with the spirit of the holidays? Cool :)

I texted one of my local new-agey-hippies. They are going to do a Solstice thing, but no one can agree on the when and where (dawn at the beach, noon, at night with a bonfire). Missed them last year and Summer Solstice but I'll try to make this one. IIRC, the summer one has a death theme and winter is rebirth. Promise to deflower something in the ISFs honor.
 
Yeah, I get your point. but these guys don't seem to be doing that, if Senex's video and linked website are any example. They have specific social agendas they are pushing, all actually pretty standard fare, women's right to choose and other progressive causes, that they are using the religious angle to create new exemptions for.

You missed the part where he explained Thomas Jefferson stating non-belief in the supernatural does not exclude your beliefs from being considered religious.

Perhaps you should be the one taking daily selfies. As the black mark nears your head the more imperative it is to throw out your old porno collection and clear your browser history before your family has to do it.
 
You missed the part where he explained Thomas Jefferson stating non-belief in the supernatural does not exclude your beliefs from being considered religious.

Oh, I caught it. I call that 'convenient justification'. TJ was referring to protecting the infidels, not made up religions reaping the benefits of religious protections.

'Graves' is clever, for sure. and I support the meta-battle. But think about mommy taking kiddies to see the lights. Best case scenario: 'Oh, there's a snakey handy thing. We let the creepy people put things like that up because we love all people and include them at this festive time of year'.

The celebrants would actually come off looking better, not being challenged. It's a losing proposition all around.

Perhaps you should be the one taking daily selfies. As the black mark nears your head the more imperative it is to throw out your old porno collection and clear your browser history before your family has to do it.

Baby, I'll meet ya in hell. Looks to be fun, based on the company :thumbsup:
 
If the Illinois State House is anything like every other State House I've ever been in, there are killjoy downers all over the place, such as signs saying things like "Reminder: quarterly estimated state taxes must be received by January 15 to avoid penalties."

But I suppose those will get a pass because they're official government business.

So how about, a private display soliciting donations to support homeless shelters during the cold winter months, with no lights or tinsel, just pictures of suffering homeless people. Would that be okay?

Hmm, maybe that will get a pass too, because something something holiday something spirit of giving something Charles Dickens something something.

So how about instead, an environmentalist group puts up a "Turn down your thermostat to reduce climate change" display, with not a reindeer or dreidel in sight, but including some pictures of starving stranded polar bears, hurricane damage, and wildfires. Acceptable? Dickish?
 
The poor Mom's who have to explain to their fragile children that there actually are people that don't do Christian Christmas. Of course, the kids probably love the snake. "Mommy, can I have a snake like that?" ;)
 
The poor Mom's who have to explain to their fragile children that there actually are people that don't do Christian Christmas. Of course, the kids probably love the snake. "Mommy, can I have a snake like that?" ;)

"Well, of course you can, honey. But you'll have to SELL YOUR SOUL TO SATAN AND BE A FILTHY WHORE WHO WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY AND MOMMY AND DADDY WON'T LOVE YOU ANYMORE....Merry Christmas, sweetie. Rot in hell alone"

It's like you guys don't have any holiday spirit.
 
"Well, of course you can, honey. But you'll have to SELL YOUR SOUL TO SATAN AND BE A FILTHY WHORE WHO WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY AND MOMMY AND DADDY WON'T LOVE YOU ANYMORE....Merry Christmas, sweetie. Rot in hell alone"

It's like you guys don't have any holiday spirit.

"Oooh, look at all the pretty lights..." :GASP! "What the hell is that?! Some people have no respect for us and our joyous celebration! Talk about completely inappropriate! A.... Menorah?"
 
The poor Mom's who have to explain to their fragile children that there actually are people that don't do Christian Christmas. Of course, the kids probably love the snake. "Mommy, can I have a snake like that?" ;)

My five year old niece whispered her Xmas gift wish to a mall Santa this year. He blurted out 'but they're extinct!' My sister believes she asked for a live tyrannosaurus. I know this child. She asked for an army of live tyrannosaurs. Her twin is just as bad, preferring ankylosaurs on the incorrect but quite logical grounds that 'more spikes means more damage to enemies'. People who believe in the delicacy and innocence of children haven't actually talked to one.
 
"Oooh, look at all the pretty lights..." :GASP! "What the hell is that?! Some people have no respect for us and our joyous celebration! Talk about completely inappropriate! A.... Menorah?"

Hey, hey, hey...language. We only say 'hell' at this time of year to describe where you are going if you don't celebrate properly.
 
"Oooh, look at all the pretty lights..." :GASP! "What the hell is that?! Some people have no respect for us and our joyous celebration! Talk about completely inappropriate! A.... Menorah?"
:)

Baby, I'll meet ya in hell. Looks to be fun, based on the company :thumbsup:

Not in the inner circles where you may be going. I'd put in a good word for you with the big guy but I'm a little behind in my dues and need to keep a low profile.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom