attempt5001
Muse
It does, and while I could reiterate various doctrinal responses, my honest answer is 'I don't know'.
Balancing Skepticism and Faith
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It does, and while I could reiterate various doctrinal responses, my honest answer is 'I don't know'.
attempt5001
Muse
Interesting thought test. I'm not sure I know the answer and will have to think about it. My experience in faith has been both personal and community based, so it's hard to consider outside of that context. I think though, that I would be likely to do what I'm doing now, which is to try to find an outlet to discuss it, weigh input from others and proceed the best I could, giving space for my thinking to change and adapt over time.
For me, it would feel dishonest (or disingenuous) to reject my faith entirely.
Sure. I didn’t intend to put any “Hurry up and come over to the dark-side, we have cookies” pressure on you. As I said earlier, I can’t really appreciate the intricacies and difficulties of your conflict. Perhaps I should leave it others that can.
A question I’ve never been able to answer with any confidence is whether or not I would’ve believed in a thunder and lightning god if I was alive and experiencing such a severe storm a thousand years ago.
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attempt5001
Muse
Hi Thor 2. Yeah, it's a bit hard to keep up and I'll probably stay logged off for a bit after this, but I appreciate your post and want to try to reply before doing so.
Firstly, regarding the "dead-end" response you get from Christians, I think I can understand why. I think most people value the faith they have, but find it hard to define and to defend. Most would like to think of their faith as strong and robust, but being unable to defend it can highlight its fragility, which is not a good feeling for one to whom it is also precious. I think when people feel "out-gunned" (e.g. by someone presenting an argument or perspective they can't defend, or by someone with superior logic and communication skills) they defer to experience both as an attempt to explain something that in many way defies explanation, and because is a more unassailable defensive/protective position. I can understand that response and it's a big reason why I am very careful about with whom I discuss challenges I face with my own faith. I don't want to discourage, or damage someone else's faith, that is valuable to them and possibly more fragile than they want to consider.
As for the cornerstone of my own faith ... I honestly don't know. Yes, my upbringing, experience, and faith up until recently has been exclusively Christian, but while aspects of that are still very valuable to me, I've decided to subject it more openly to critical evaluation and discourse (such as I am doing here). For me, part of the purpose of it is to identify the most fragile components and either strengthen them, rethink them or allow them to be broken and discarded. I believe there is incredible insight and wisdom and encouragement in the examples and words attributed to Jesus in the new testament. I don't know other religions or religious texts very intimately, but it seems there are many similar elements there as well, which I find encouraging. I'm inspired by communities that show compassion and hope and peace and joy and I think those things are an expression of something bigger than evolved biological behaviours. And I have faith and hope that mankind can overcome hatred and selfishness and greed and move towards a future that better than what currently seems likely or even possible.
That's the best I can express it right now. I appreciate the poignant question very much. Thanks for asking it.
attempt5001
Muse
No worries ynot. It's reasonable to press your point for follow up and clarity. Cookies do sound good, but I'm pretty committed to working through this at my own pace Hard to imagine living in anyone else's shoes let alone ages ago in history. Makes a strong case for compassion eh?
Beelzebuddy
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Don't waste your time with cookies. If you want to do some real soul-searching, you need pie.
That's a little too dramatic, but I hope you get the idea. Something that has been a bulwark of your ego suddenly becoming much less warky, and even though you may never know what the truth of the matter is, you do know that you like it less than the ignorance. Lotta conflict there.
Exactly this. It's so easy to turn your brain off and just refuse to think about things that would challenge your worldview. Platitudes help. With practice it becomes habitual. You don't even notice. It takes a conscious effort, and at least in my case a quiet evening and a good part of a bottle of Jack, to sit down and stare at those obvious logical conclusions head-on.
I'll give it a shot. Picture one of your role models you knew as a child. Now imagine an old friend confiding in you that he raped her back then. Take a moment to consider your feelings.
That's a little too dramatic, but I hope you get the idea. Something that has been a bulwark of your ego suddenly becoming much less warky, and even though you may never know what the truth of the matter is, you do know that you like it less than the ignorance. Lotta conflict there.
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Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
This thread isn't about you. Sorry.
Lukraak_Sisser
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Thanks for the welcome and the thoughts LS. Appreciated. One of the events that started me down this path of introspection was reading the bible from cover to cover, (rather than just rereading my favourite bits
Regarding "not all religions can be true"; yes, but to what degree do common elements of various religions suggest common truth/insight? Just one of the things I'm contemplating.
Oh, there are commonalities in religions, but those are also found in non-religious contexts.
Lets not kill each other (without reason) and lets not steal each others stuff are basic ground rules societies need to function.
The bits that all religions have about obeying the god(s) (and thus their priests) are needed to keep the religion afloat. But that is also the part that stifles human innovation and growth.
If there truly is a benevolent, all powerful god out there that for some reason needs us to behave in a certain way to be 'saved' after death, something I find odd to begin with, how come that god cannot make it's will clear to humanity? Because if it could we would not have this discussion and there would only be one religion with no sub-sects at all.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
Hi attempt5001,
Let me add my belated welcome to the forum and my own input such as it is and although much of it repeats what others have said. To give you some background, I grew up in a nominally Christian household, went to an explicitly Christian school where the Bible was taught as fact (although to be fair evolution wasn't denied, contradictions simply weren't mentioned), daily religious assemblies, hymns and prayer etc. By the time I was eight I knew I didn't believe, but my older brother wound up very religious.
I also read your post as effectively saying that you've known really nice people of your religion and consider this evidence the religion is true, as others have said I too have known fantastic people from various religions and none, some of the nicest people I've known have been religious, so too have many of the most unpleasant (anecdotally the two most criminal people I've known are regular church goers who define themselves very much by their religion). Your belief that religion keeps you consistent in behaving in a moral manner strikes me as cultural rather than divine. You obviously live in a community with strong social ties, rules that you consider positive and good role models, definitely important for society but not intrinsicly divine!
With regard the use of terms like 'myth' and 'fairy tale', sometimes yes they are a dig, sometimes they're appropriate, sometimes it's because we're trying to get across that to people outside of a religion there are aspects that are completely unbelievable, completely, utterly, Jesus walking on water, Mohammed flying to Heaven on a winged horse with a human face, Joseph Smith transcribing the golden plates, Xenu. Chances are you don't believe in any but one of them yourself, we don't believe any of them at all, honestly, the difference between the Pope and that guy who calls himself 'Arthur Pendragon' and claims to be leader of the druids is numbers, social acceptance and wealth.
I would be interested to hear what it is that you feel is the dividing line between your belief and your scepticism? What is it that you believe but don't think is true?
Let me add my belated welcome to the forum and my own input such as it is and although much of it repeats what others have said. To give you some background, I grew up in a nominally Christian household, went to an explicitly Christian school where the Bible was taught as fact (although to be fair evolution wasn't denied, contradictions simply weren't mentioned), daily religious assemblies, hymns and prayer etc. By the time I was eight I knew I didn't believe, but my older brother wound up very religious.
I also read your post as effectively saying that you've known really nice people of your religion and consider this evidence the religion is true, as others have said I too have known fantastic people from various religions and none, some of the nicest people I've known have been religious, so too have many of the most unpleasant (anecdotally the two most criminal people I've known are regular church goers who define themselves very much by their religion). Your belief that religion keeps you consistent in behaving in a moral manner strikes me as cultural rather than divine. You obviously live in a community with strong social ties, rules that you consider positive and good role models, definitely important for society but not intrinsicly divine!
With regard the use of terms like 'myth' and 'fairy tale', sometimes yes they are a dig, sometimes they're appropriate, sometimes it's because we're trying to get across that to people outside of a religion there are aspects that are completely unbelievable, completely, utterly, Jesus walking on water, Mohammed flying to Heaven on a winged horse with a human face, Joseph Smith transcribing the golden plates, Xenu. Chances are you don't believe in any but one of them yourself, we don't believe any of them at all, honestly, the difference between the Pope and that guy who calls himself 'Arthur Pendragon' and claims to be leader of the druids is numbers, social acceptance and wealth.
I would be interested to hear what it is that you feel is the dividing line between your belief and your scepticism? What is it that you believe but don't think is true?
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The Big Dog
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There is not a place in a serious discussion where it is appropriate to declare another person's religious beliefs as "fairy tales." It is pejorative, inaccurate and perhaps worst of all, totally unoriginal.
Have you seriously been impressed with any "argument" that features school yard level taunts like "fairy tales" or "sky daddy"? I have not, indeed when I notice garbage like being featured in posts one can safely conclude that one is dealing with a bigot with nothing original to add. That general rule has always worked well for me.
Marcus
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Is "fairy tales" pejorative? Certainly not a taunt, more like a description that carries information about the person who uses it, his lack of belief, in a way that saying "God " does not. For those of us who are not Believers, it is also an accurate description. Also, having read many of your posts in the Politics section, I know you are not thin skinned when it comes to politics, I don't see why Religion should be any different.
The Big Dog
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It is a taunt, and it is not descriptive. And it is not that I am being thin skinned, quite the contrary, I am describing my reaction to posts:
Behold this creature that walks like a man and claims to be skeptic: it uses “fairy tales” in its posts...
xterra
So far, so good...
TBD, would you have the same reaction if someone uses lower-case 'god' in their argument, even to refer to the deity you believe in?
What if someone says that your deity and all the other deities are myths?
(These are serious questions, not intended to be insulting.)
What if someone says that your deity and all the other deities are myths?
(These are serious questions, not intended to be insulting.)
Minoosh
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Not directed at me, but I would say "myths" is less derisive and might be a more productive term to use.
The Big Dog
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Nope, I would not have a problem with people using those terms.
It is juvenile, insipid and a schoolyard taunt. If someone said they were going to dinner with their father, would you think it is reasonable to start saying “oh you going to dinner with your daddy” in a deliberately mocking tone? Of course not.
I mean use it if you need to, of course, it is a fantastic identifier of people who can be safely ignored.
The Big Dog
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Ok, objectively speaking it is juvenile, insipid, or a schoolyard taunt but by god if "sky daddy" is your best argument, by all means make it!
/hoo boy...
Thor 2
Philosopher
Hello again attempt5001 and thanks for your detailed response.
Unlike yourself I do want to discourage, and damage the faith of others, if I can see that faith impacting the lives of others directly, or indirectly by propping up institutions involved in doing just this. Note the emphasis is on attacking the faith, not the faithful, who I see as victims themselves.
From what you write I get the impression that your grip on faith is tenuous. Certainly many of the words attributed to Christ are inspiring, but it is well known they are not unique and most have been borrowed from other sources, before his time. If you are hoping that Christianity will help mankind overcome hatred, selfishness and greed, history would seem to contradict you. Christianity must hold the record as the most fragmented religion of all time with its 40,000 different versions, some of whom dislike each other intensely. If I may introduce a note of levity into this discussion you may enjoy the following:
You will note a certain large canine is trying to divert this discussion into one about peripheral issues, like how offensive it is to use certain descriptive language. This is a common tactic of his that can be irritating. Best to just ignore the posts as the bulk of us do.
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Marcus
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It's not an argument at all, merely a term that succinctly describes a being that is all-powerful, omnipotent, invisible, is frequently referred to as "Father", and resides in Heaven.