Balancing Skepticism and Faith

GDon said:
I kind of went in the opposite direction. I was brought up an "apathetic atheist" (atheist but didn't really care one way or the other about the question of God) who is a skeptic, and was involved in the Australian Skeptics in my younger years. Around the age of 30, I started down the track of belief and ended up the middle-aged theist that I am today. I have a thread on this board from a few months ago where I explain why I became a theist.

I'd recommend a book called "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian & the Risk of Commitment" by Daniel Taylor, which may address some of your concerns.

One thing to keep in mind: a lot of people on this board are what I'd call "fundy atheists". Not that they have a fundamentalist approach to their atheism, but they have their own idea of what God doesn't exist, often based on the Bible (hence the "fundamentalism"), and will argue with you on that basis. You'll probably find that you either agree with them already that the God that they disbelieve in doesn't exist, or they try to convince you that their version of God (that they don't believe in) is the only one worth considering and then rejecting. You might want to try an Apologetics board for a more broad-minded view of ideas around belief.
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Thanks GDon. I'll look up your previous thread and give it a read. The book looks like it covers some helpful aspects of this discussion as well. Thanks for the link.

I understand your description of "fundy atheists". I think for some it is also cathartic to choose to endorse atheism with a certain anti-religious vigour. But overall I've been really encouraged with the thoughtful way people have engaged in this thread, much like yourself.
 
xterra said:
attempt5001, clearly you are making a sincere attempt (sorry; couldn't help it) to come to grips with your changing beliefs and perspectives. Good for you!


As you travel this road, remember that people who don't believe in / lack faith in a god, higher power, something greater, whatever you call it, are not by definition less moral or ethical than those who do believe.


Furthermore, there are religions like Buddhism that don't include the belief in a god like the one in christianity. Or maybe not in a god at all. Again, that doesn't mean they advocate unethical or immoral behavior.


(And the question of moral behavior is a difficult one. For one example, one male, one female as the basis of a family unit is not universal, neither in humans nor in animals. Sex outside of marriage -- what's that? Depends on definitions of marriage, of what counts as sex, etc.)
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Thanks xterra for the encouragement and reminder. I agree 100%.
 
Dr. Keith said:
That seems the most honest definition of faith. Frankly, I wish more Christians understood it as well as you do. Faith is not thinking you have proof, faith is believing in spite of the absence of evidence.

I don't have faith that my wife loves me, I have evidence. If we had similar evidence that there was a God and that God cared about us, we would not need faith.
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Thanks again DrK. Indeed, I can choose to interpret my life experiences as "evidence" of God's existence/love, but it is certainly an act of faith to do so. :)
 
attempt5001 said:
Laugh. Yeah, you did :) Glad we could have some meaningful back and forth though.
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Thanks . . . but seriously . . . after reading your posts I’m not sure if you want to balance your skepticism and faith, or whether you’re contemplating the scary prospect of replacing your emotional faith with intellectual skepticism.
 
attempt5001 said:
Thanks again DrK. Indeed, I can choose to interpret my life experiences as "evidence" of God's existence/love, but it is certainly an act of faith to do so. :)
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attempt5001 said:
I gotta stop replying to every post then or I'm gonna burn up all my freebies. ;)
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How do you view people that have had terrible life experiences? Is that "evidence" of god's existence/punishment?

Again, meant to understand, not accuse.
 
ynot said:
Thanks . . . but seriously . . . after reading your posts I’m not sure if you want to balance your skepticism and faith, or whether you’re contemplating the scary prospect of replacing your emotional faith with intellectual skepticism.
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Yes, you're quite right. I've been contemplating that for about the last two years. To the few I've spoken to in person about this, I've described it as a desire to be genuine. Right now, I feel like the most genuine I can be includes embracing critical thinking (and the challenges that presents to elements of my faith), while recognizing that there remain other aspects of my faith that continue to resonate strongly with me, despite their being subjective and not provable. I described it as tension in the OP, but I actually feel more at peace in this "middle ground" than I have while exploring either extreme. Do you ever feel that way, perhaps in different context?
 
The Greater Fool said:
How do you view people that have had terrible life experiences? Is that "evidence" of god's existence/punishment?

Again, meant to understand, not accuse.
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Right. Fair question and no. Another experience that precipitated this phase of my life was a close friend's young son dying of brain cancer. I never consciously ascribed to the "my life is good because God loves me" mentality (or the converse), but the experience made me recognize it was subconsciously there to some degree and I needed to consider it more critically. That was actually ~ 5 years ago. It's a process :)
 
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attempt5001 said:
Right. Fair question and no. Another experience that precipitated this phase of my life was a close friend's young son dying of brain cancer. I never consciously ascribed to the "my life is good because God loves me" mentality (or the converse), but the experience made me recognize it was subconsciously there to some degree and I needed to consider it more critically. That was actually ~ 5 years ago. It's a process :)
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Does that get you into the whole 'Why does god allow evil' question?
 
attempt5001 said:
Yes, you're quite right. I've been contemplating that for about the last two years. To the few I've spoken to in person about this, I've described it as a desire to be genuine. Right now, I feel like the most genuine I can be includes embracing critical thinking (and the challenges that presents to elements of my faith), while recognizing that there remain other aspects of my faith that continue to resonate strongly with me, despite their being subjective and not provable. I described it as tension in the OP, but I actually feel more at peace in this "middle ground" than I have while exploring either extreme. Do you ever feel that way, perhaps in different context?
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I’ve never had any god beliefs or other paranormal/supernatural beliefs to conflict with skepticism or critical thinking. I sometimes wish I did have so I could better appreciate what having the conflict is actually like. Being honest (genuine), especially self-honest, has always been important to me, and it has always seemed that having god or other paranormal/supernatural beliefs must require that you be self-dishonest to some degree (at least in an intellectual sense).

If I ever have cause to doubt a belief I subject it to this “sheeple belief test" – Would I still believe in it if I was the only person in the world that believed in it?

ETA - What would your answer be if "it" was "God"?
 
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attempt5001 said:
I understand your description of "fundy atheists". I think for some it is also cathartic to choose to endorse atheism with a certain anti-religious vigour. But overall I've been really encouraged with the thoughtful way people have engaged in this thread, much like yourself.
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Oh, they're a good group of people here, otherwise I wouldn't keep coming back. A very small number are nasty and determined to misread what you write, but I just put them on my "ignore list" (something you can set here) which means I don't see their posts.

However, discussions here rarely go beyond "Is there an invisible dragon in your garage?" and atheists arguing "Christians who treat the Bible allegorically (and not literally) are poopy-heads!" Subjects like 'Philosophy' are looked on suspiciously as lacking value. It is 'Science!' that rules here!

The best boards are those that have a good mix of atheists and theists who are knowledgeable and enjoy arguing in-depth on topics. There was a great one I used to visit, but unfortunately it is no longer active. Those are the best places to discuss ideas you raised in your OP. Anyway, good luck!
 
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attempt5001 said:
It encourages my "faith" in humanity ;)
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I can recommend Phil Zuckerman:

Instead of being bastions of sin and corruption, however, as the Christian Right has suggested a godless society would be, these countries [Denmark and Sweden] are filled with residents who score at the very top of the “happiness index” and enjoy their healthy societies, which boast some of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world (along with some of the lowest levels of corruption), excellent educational systems, strong economies, well-supported arts, free health care, egalitarian social policies, outstanding bike paths, and great beer.
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attempt5001 said:
Right. Fair question and no. Another experience that precipitated this phase of my life was a close friend's young son dying of brain cancer. I never consciously ascribed to the "my life is good because God loves me" mentality (or the converse), but the experience made me recognize it was subconsciously there to some degree and I needed to consider it more critically. That was actually ~ 5 years ago. It's a process :)
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As you have been very busy replying to the posts of others, I am reluctant to put my oar in again, but I have a question that I would like to hear you answer.

What is the cornerstone of your faith and is it exclusively Christianity centred?

Having had many discussions that inevitably turn into arguments with the religious in my family, I found it easy to knock out, one by one, the planks that support their faith in scripture. The final bastion they inevitably retreat to is the "I know because I had this experience where I came to know God/Jesus."

When I ask how it is they identify this experience with the Christian deity or deities, (along with others I have problems with the three part god thing), and point out that many others have similar experiences they attribute to other gods, they just respond they know - end of discussion.

I am impressed by your apparent candour thus far and if you keep this up will receive respect from most atheists here. The evasive and quite frankly dishonest posts from some theists, (one in particular who shall remain nameless), have queered the pitch, so some may post a little more aggressively than you may think reasonable.
 
Balancing skepticism and faith is like trying to ride two horses with one ass. It simply can't be done. Those who feel they can, or have, are deluding themselves.
 
qayak said:
Balancing skepticism and faith is like trying to ride two horses with one ass. It simply can't be done. Those who feel they can, or have, are deluding themselves.
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I think they compartmentalize skepticism and faith in an attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance, rather than balance them.
 
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