Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Thermal]

Your impression is wrong. The entire goal here is to create whatever fantasy is required in order to justify criticisms of the Satanist's display.

If that means resorting to denying that a nativity is a religious display, then that is what you have to do. Reality doesn't matter.

*cue theme from The Twilight Zone*

 

[Thermal]

I think its by definition no more a "In your face, I can do this and you can't stop me" than the Christian displays they are a response to.

I don't understand (no snark) what you mean by "flip off."

The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival. The Satanists are not wishing anyone well or even claiming to be celebrating anything. They are quite literally saying neener neener, we can do this too.

And again, there is a time and place for that important point to be made. I don't think this is it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

It seems the cheap plastic nativity has set you off a bit, my friend. Maybe you should hang out with more Catholics. The whole religion seems to be about the adoration and worship of cheap plastic stuff, from beads to little statuettes.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival. The Satanists are not wishing anyone well or even claiming to be celebrating anything. They are quite literally saying neener neener, we can do this too.

And again, there is a time and place for that important point to be made. I don't think this is it.

As Jesus remarked unto the people: 'don't start none, won't be none'.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival.

There's where we disagree.

No I can't see into the mind of whoever put up this one particular display (anymore than you can into the Satanist) but there's certainly a "I can do this and you can't stop me because I'm the big dog in the yard" to displays of Christian iconography on government grounds in general.

This is an (arguably) ostentatious response to an (most probably) ostentatious act, not the ostentatious response to a innocent act you see it as.

 

[The Greater Fool]

I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?

It can both, just as some Christian displays can be both.

Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.

This seems like a "No True Christian" fallacy.

But, as you indicate, perhaps the high end Christians don't have a dog in this fight. This is between the 'low end' Christians vs Satanists. Why support what you claim is not (True) Christian and not support the Satanists that are also not (True) Christians? If neither reach your high standard of religious, why care either way?

 

[xterra]

Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.

Is the high-end Christian working in a soup kitchen more worthy or less worthy than a secular person working in a soup kitchen? That is, does the religious belief or lack of it make a difference to their activity?

 

[Thermal]

It seems the cheap plastic nativity has set you off a bit, my friend. Maybe you should hang out with more Catholics. The whole religion seems to be about the adoration and worship of cheap plastic stuff, from beads to little statuettes.

Preach it preacher. I'm married to a Catholic. One would think it is the Church of Polycarbonate

 

[Thermal]

There's where we disagree.

No I can't see into the mind of whoever put up this one particular display (anymore than you can into the Satanist) but there's certainly a "I can do this and you can't stop me because I'm the big dog in the yard" to displays of Christian iconography on government grounds in general.

This is an (arguably) ostentatious response to an (most probably) ostentatious act, not the ostentatious response to a innocent act you see it as.

That's a fair argument, though I think the long,-standing tradition of Christmas decorations and festivities lends credibility to the reason for the displays. Snakey handy thingy, not so much.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's a fair argument, though I think the long,-standing tradition of Christmas decorations and festivities lends credibility to the reason for the displays. Snakey handy thingy, not so much.

And that's my point. Christianity has thrown its weight around and shoulder it's way into so much stuff that to use the "it's become standard" argument is kind of a problem.

So basically your argument is "The minority side has been drowned out by the majority side which proves the majority side is safely the default so the minority side doesn't get to shout louder because that's petty."

 

[Thermal]

It can both, just as some Christian displays can be both.

Agreed

This seems like a "No True Christian" fallacy.

Disagreed. Acknowledging levels of devotion is not saying one is more real, just that they will be different

But, as you indicate, perhaps the high end Christians don't have a dog in this fight. This is between the 'low end' Christians vs Satanists. Why support what you claim is not (True) Christian and not support the Satanists that are also not (True) Christians? If neither reach your high standard of religious, why care either way?

My argument is not that 'true' Christians do x, y, or z. My argument is that the sculpture was a mean spirited flip off. When people are living it up, why piss on the parade needlessly, even in this small way?

 

[Thermal]

Is the high-end Christian working in a soup kitchen more worthy or less worthy than a secular person working in a soup kitchen? That is, does the religious belief or lack of it make a difference to their activity?

Not to me, no. Good works are good works. Putting creepy handy-snakey thingy in someone's party decorations is not an example of good works

 

[Thermal]

And that's my point. Christianity has thrown its weight around and shoulder it's way into so much stuff that to use the "it's become standard" argument is kind of a problem.

So basically your argument is "The minority side has been drowned out by the majority side which proves the majority side is safely the default so the minority side doesn't get to shout louder because that's petty."

No, my argument is that when a lot of people are having a good time, welcoming their religion, the secular, and other religions, don't shove your way in and tell them all to suck it.

Different argument, that. Its not the politico- religious perspective. Its just manners

 

[The Greater Fool]

My argument is not that 'true' Christians do x, y, or z. My argument is that the sculpture was a mean spirited flip off. When people are living it up, why piss on the parade needlessly, even in this small way?

You believe it's needlessly. I don't.

And were back to page 1

 

[Dr. Keith]

Preach it preacher. I'm married to a Catholic. One would think it is the Church of Polycarbonate

I'll just return to the back of the room and shake my head, then. Have fun!

 

[xterra]

Not to me, no. Good works are good works. Putting creepy handy-snakey thingy in someone's party decorations is not an example of good works

Putting a gruesome statue of a person being tortured where people who want to enjoy themselves -- that's pretty creepy also.


It seems you can't see that not everyone shares your view of what's appropriate in a multi-religious/non-religious society. The default position should be to keep all these things out of PUBLIC government spaces, but if that's not going to happen, the next best thing is to allow all of them.



If there are people who don't approve of one -- they don't have to look.

 

[Thermal]

Putting a gruesome statue of a person being tortured where people who want to enjoy themselves -- that's pretty creepy also.

Agreed. I was raised in a protestant environment where a crucifix was never shown. Gruesome imagery.

It seems you can't see that not everyone shares your view of what's appropriate in a multi-religious/non-religious society. The default position should be to keep all these things out of PUBLIC government spaces, but if that's not going to happen, the next best thing is to allow all of them.

Oh, I can see it quite clearly, that my view is not shared. I'm not overly concerned with Congress mandating religion on us, though. Much like I am not concerned with the President declaring a monarchy.

There is a line in there somewhere where people can enjoy a festivity without it becoming a constitutional crisis. Santa on a fire truck doesn't give me an existential crisis.

If there are people who don't approve of one -- they don't have to look.

Hard to miss snakey handy thingy pushed up against the Christmas tree. Time and place for those battles

 

[The Greater Fool]

Hard to miss snakey handy thingy pushed up against the Christmas tree. Time and place for those battles

I doubt the Satanists had a choice in placement. The article said it was between a nativity scene and a Menorah, so sounds like reasonable placement to me.

 

[Myriad]

Decorated trees, wreaths, lights, and Christmas celebrations are so important to the proper observance of Christianity that the devout Puritan Christian founders of my state banned them.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Agreed, it's beautiful and poignant in its meaning.

I don't see how they could be celebrating Christianity while they are cheering what Christians (Jews at the time, really) were ordered by their god not to do.

I don't understand how you viewed my post as saying they were celebrating Christianity?! I stated it could be viewed as celebrating Satan giving knowledge to humans not mocking Christianity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.