Balancing Skepticism and Faith

[Minoosh]

And to address the OP: I get nothing out of hanging around with Christians; I just feel like a hypocrite because I know I don't believe what they do. If they say they follow Jesus or some such I respect that, but not so much if they've been "saved." I'd probably get along fine with Sufis or Reform Jews, but evangelical Christians not so much.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

Okay, you are a scientist and a skeptic. That is a good start.
Now strip away metaphysics in any sense other than:
I am not the only "thing".
I am a part of a lot of "things"
Some of these "things" including some other "things" and "myself" have qualities, which are not "things" or the property of "things".
That matters to me and that it matters is not a quality of a "thing".

So based on your posts you want, that what matters to you to include others. Hold that at your core - not what reality really is. That what you do, is that it matters and that it includes other humans.

I am an atheist and I am different that some other atheists, because as a skeptic I don't believe in any positive assert of what reality really is independent of the mind. I don't need that, what I need is the same as you - that it matters and that it includes other humans.

Strip away all positive claims of what reality really is independent of you and you will find that, what really matters, is not what reality really is. What matters, is you and other humans.
Then rebuild - I as an individual use religion, because it matters to me, but I aspect differences in that as long as the other human share that other humans matter.

That is how, I as an atheist can hold some religious humans and form a "we". We share that other humans matter in the everyday reality, we are both part of. We can aspect differences in individual beliefs about what reality really is, because we can agree on what matters in practice are ourselves and other humans.
And that is how, I disagree with some atheists and some religious people, because they can decides in all cases of what matters, is, what matters to them. They are all regardless of how they arrive at it with Objective Authority, because down to any single individual, they can judge the other as being right or wrong for any personal beliefs.

I even as an atheist leave that to God. God is the only one capable of that. I don't judge on humans in that sense. I agree or disagree with them, but I don't judge them as individuals for their Objective Worth.
I judge myself and others in an intersubjective way. What matters, is subjective and what matters intersubjectively, is that we matter to each other in general aspects and for the individual differences.

Always keep in mind that no matter what reality is, is not that, which matters. What matters, is that it matters and that is subjective and if you include other humans, it becomes intersubjective. There is the "we" and I think we share that, despite being different, because what we have in common, are faith in humans.
Find that, faith in the good in humans is a leap of faith even for me as an atheist.

That is the core. Faith in that "I" can judge other humans OR faith in the good in all humans despite differences.
It always in practice boils down to ethics; i.e. what matters. That "I" can judge other humans or if "I" believe in other humans.

Now continue your life and I wish you a good life. How ever you believe as long as you believe in the good in other humans, we are a "we".
I will leave, because I have another thread, where I debate some of the Objective Authority believers.

May your faith be with you!!!

 

[The Greater Fool]

Yes, but I think that's because it's the only context for faith I have known personally. But when I say I'm exploring or re-orienting my faith, I don't mean I am looking to exchange Christian faith for a different religious faith. I mean I am thinking through what elements of that Christian faith background I value outside of the context of doctrine. (You are doing a better job asking clear questions than I am able to do giving clear answers)

This reply is more the sort of information I was after, so pardon if I move to here. I think I understand where you are. Even asking and pursuing these questions is exceptional, as most folks don't dare think about them.

I am going to read the better questions and better responses than I am capable of along with you. You're a thoughtful person, you'll get where you want to go. Happy trails to you.

 

[sylvan8798]

You probably do this because you love your spouse and don't want to hurt her (based on your sig name, I assume that you're male; I also assume that you're heterosexual), but how would you like to be the one who were cheated in this way? I can only speak for myself, but I would hate it and feel betrayed, except that I wouldn't know, of course, which I would also hate ... if I knew ...

Actually, I'm a middle-aged, suburban, heterosexual woman. I realize that it would have been better if I had told my then future husband this when we were dating, but then, I've made a lot of bad decisions in my life. I did tell him that I was lapsed. As I recall his attitude was that we can fix that by going to church. Otherwise, we'll leave discussions of my marriage to some other time and place, as they are not relevant to OP's discussion.

 

[GDon]

I also am middle-age, have a family, a Ph.D. and am a critical thinker with open eyes/mind to the world around me. As such, there is inevitable (and increasing over the last number of years) tension/conflict between my faith and my skepticism. The former is both foundational and precious to me, but the latter is also essential to my ability to live life and explore and interact with the world-at-large in a genuine way.

I kind of went in the opposite direction. I was brought up an "apathetic atheist" (atheist but didn't really care one way or the other about the question of God) who is a skeptic, and was involved in the Australian Skeptics in my younger years. Around the age of 30, I started down the track of belief and ended up the middle-aged theist that I am today. I have a thread on this board from a few months ago where I explain why I became a theist.

I'd recommend a book called "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian & the Risk of Commitment" by Daniel Taylor, which may address some of your concerns.

One thing to keep in mind: a lot of people on this board are what I'd call "fundy atheists". Not that they have a fundamentalist approach to their atheism, but they have their own idea of what God doesn't exist, often based on the Bible (hence the "fundamentalism"), and will argue with you on that basis. You'll probably find that you either agree with them already that the God that they disbelieve in doesn't exist, or they try to convince you that their version of God (that they don't believe in) is the only one worth considering and then rejecting. You might want to try an Apologetics board for a more broad-minded view of ideas around belief.

 

[Dr. Keith]

In pith: I believe in Grace.

Grace? She passed away 30 years ago!

 

[attempt5001]

You’re doing fine (I've seen plenty much worse).

I don’t particularly like or use the word “faith”, mainly because of it’s theistic associations and connotations. I prefer the word “trust”. Perhaps if you “abandon” theism you might also consider abandoning the word “faith” to avoid any ambiguity (keep the wheat, throw out the chaff). Just a suggestion .

Thanks. Yes, I've thought of switching to using "hope" along the thread here, but there remains a theistic element in it for me so I've stuck with faith, despite the variety of reader-specific connotations it's likely to evoke. I do expect to need to adjust my vocabulary as I continue to work through this though.
(Nicely done with the wheat/chaff analogy by the way)

 

[xterra]

attempt5001, clearly you are making a sincere attempt (sorry; couldn't help it) to come to grips with your changing beliefs and perspectives. Good for you!


As you travel this road, remember that people who don't believe in / lack faith in a god, higher power, something greater, whatever you call it, are not by definition less moral or ethical than those who do believe.


Furthermore, there are religions like Buddhism that don't include the belief in a god like the one in christianity. Or maybe not in a god at all. Again, that doesn't mean they advocate unethical or immoral behavior.


(And the question of moral behavior is a difficult one. For one example, one male, one female as the basis of a family unit is not universal, neither in humans nor in animals. Sex outside of marriage -- what's that? Depends on definitions of marriage, of what counts as sex, etc.)

 

[attempt5001]

The problem with the image you use is the "baggage," the background and assumptions and years of [I hesitated here looking for a word] acquiescence that accompany the image, the idea.

I thought about putting the following anecdotes in my original comment, but decided to wait to see your response to my "why not" question. But since you understand the point, here goes:

I was with a friend in Colorado some years ago. We were camped in the mountains and came into town looking for a grocery store. I saw a sign and told him to turn at the Presbyterian church.

Being a very devout Catholic, he became quite angry and said, "That's NOT a church!! Churches are Catholic!"

"Okay," I said, "turn at the brown building."

Amusing, right?

Here is the other half. I had another friend who is rabidly fundamentalist. To him Catholics are idol worshippers who should be ...annihilated in some fashion or other. It was never clear to me whether he meant physically or just religiously. It was also never quite clear why he wanted to be friends with me, knowing that I am an atheist.

Our friendship ended when he once again told me his belief was not based on blind faith because he had had a personal experience. When I said that his experience did not give me a reason to believe, he emailed to say that I was calling him a liar -- and concluded with this:




I am not accusing you of either of these attitudes, but the assumptions and ideas remain at the base of Christianity. This doesn't mean that other religions aren't equally fallacious, but this is the one you are familiar with.




I will edit this to second ynot's suggestion that "faith" might not be the word you want. To me, faith is believing in things for which there is no evidence.

Thanks xterra. Lots to consider and reply to there. As I mentioned in my reply to ynot, I understand and agree that religious images and words carry strong connotations. For me, those connotations are mostly positive, which makes it hard for me to abandon them completely, even while I allow more room for skeptical thought. I definitely understand though, that for many, these connotations are strongly negative. I'm sticking with the word faith for now. I still believe in, (or at least hope for), things I don't have evidence for, but I appreciate your and ynot's suggestion to reevaluate that from time to time.

I imagine lots of readers here can identify with the stories of your zealous friends. Sorry to hear about the latter anectode in particular, but I can understand it. It's a confusing thing when you are taught that unbelievers are doomed and it's up to you to save them. It can lead people with good intentions to act in foolish desperation. It may well be that your friend cared for you very genuinely, even though the expression of that was so hurtful and counter-effective. Was it a long time ago? People can change

 

[attempt5001]

I crammed a whole lot into a single post, figuring there would be at least one element you'd relate to.

An important aspect of my Faith is that I trust others to their process. I don't have any teaching to propagate. Blessings on your journey of discovering what Faith means to you. That's the best part of it.

What I wanted to say is that a person can find a spiritual perspective in hir life that doesn't require s/he suspend critical thinking for religious beliefs.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for the encouragement Apathia. I appreciate your positive outlook and kind words and hope for the same for you.

 

[ynot]

Thanks. Yes, I've thought of switching to using "hope" along the thread here, but there remains a theistic element in it for me so I've stuck with faith, despite the variety of reader-specific connotations it's likely to evoke. I do expect to need to adjust my vocabulary as I continue to work through this though.
(Nicely done with the wheat/chaff analogy by the way)

You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater (unless the baby is called Jesus)

 

[attempt5001]

Welcome to the forum attempt5001,

In answer to your post, one of the things you could do is study the myriad other faiths out there and see if you follow your faith because you truly believe it to be the actual true one, or whether you have been told it's the true faith by your parents and family / friends for the majority of your life.

I am also assuming there are parts of your faith (which seems to be christian from your posts thus far) that you do not follow, like the bits about slavery or stoning unruly children etc. Have a skeptical look at all the commandments in your faith and how many of those go against your moral code. And if so, how can they be coming from a moral god?

My personal take on both of those is that not all religions can be true, but they can all be false and that humanity on the whole is morally superior to anything dictated by the gods of the major religions, which to me indicates that IF there is a god it does not care what we think of it, let alone demand we worship it.

Thanks for the welcome and the thoughts LS. Appreciated. One of the events that started me down this path of introspection was reading the bible from cover to cover, (rather than just rereading my favourite bits ), so your point is well-taken.

Regarding "not all religions can be true"; yes, but to what degree do common elements of various religions suggest common truth/insight? Just one of the things I'm contemplating.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I'm sticking with the word faith for now. I still believe in, (or at least hope for), things I don't have evidence for, but I appreciate your and ynot's suggestion to reevaluate that from time to time.

That seems the most honest definition of faith. Frankly, I wish more Christians understood it as well as you do. Faith is not thinking you have proof, faith is believing in spite of the absence of evidence.

I don't have faith that my wife loves me, I have evidence. If we had similar evidence that there was a God and that God cared about us, we would not need faith.

 

[attempt5001]

There have been times when I have acted as if there is a God ... in my extremely abstract way ... and frankly, it probably improved my life. If I prayed for, say, courage in a situation, I would find myself acting with courage. The Serenity Prayer has been useful to me in quite a few situations. There is something about asking for help that seems to change something in me. More than doing affirmations. There are secular explanations of course. I don't pray for any given outcome. Mostly I pray for strength and guidance. I have never aligned with any particular religion - they all seem pretty whack when I investigate further.

Christianity especially makes me twitchy. I've never been able to grasp the essential premise - that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I don't even know how that works. Intellectually, I do better with Judaism or even Islam. Praying to God is one thing but praying through an intermediary? I've never understood why that should be necessary. The trinity also baffles me. I'm supposed to pray to Jesus to be heard by God, but Jesus is really God, which makes him his own son ... it seems complicated.

But what really scares me about religion is this: I can pray for guidance, and feel guided to act with courage, compassion, etc. But Osama bin Laden could ask for the same guidance, and feel called to murder thousands of people by flying jets into tall buildings.

I stop short of calling myself an atheist. Some people here think agnostic is a bogus position, but it seems valid to me. Maybe if I had a Ph.D in particle physics I'd be able to say there is no room for God, but I don't; I have to take Hawking's word for that.

Thanks for being open about your experiences and thoughts Minoosh. I have also been encouraged by having a prayerful mindset on many occasions. And I've also sometimes been very disappointed when I have prayed for specific things.

Agreed that religious justification is scary and that most doctrine is fundamentally problematic in that it attempts to explain what it also asserts is incomprehensible.

Nonetheless, I value and retain an element of faith as I consider the world around me and my place therein.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Regarding "not all religions can be true"; yes, but to what degree do common elements of various religions suggest common truth/insight? Just one of the things I'm contemplating.

Read some Joseph Campbell (The Hero with a Thousand Faces) and Bart Ehrman (The New Testament) as you head down that road. Well written and engaging.

 

[attempt5001]

Okay, you are a scientist and a skeptic. That is a good start.
Now strip away metaphysics in any sense other than:
I am not the only "thing".
I am a part of a lot of "things"
Some of these "things" including some other "things" and "myself" have qualities, which are not "things" or the property of "things".
That matters to me and that it matters is not a quality of a "thing".

So based on your posts you want, that what matters to you to include others. Hold that at your core - not what reality really is. That what you do, is that it matters and that it includes other humans.

I am an atheist and I am different that some other atheists, because as a skeptic I don't believe in any positive assert of what reality really is independent of the mind. I don't need that, what I need is the same as you - that it matters and that it includes other humans.

Strip away all positive claims of what reality really is independent of you and you will find that, what really matters, is not what reality really is. What matters, is you and other humans.
Then rebuild - I as an individual use religion, because it matters to me, but I aspect differences in that as long as the other human share that other humans matter.

That is how, I as an atheist can hold some religious humans and form a "we". We share that other humans matter in the everyday reality, we are both part of. We can aspect differences in individual beliefs about what reality really is, because we can agree on what matters in practice are ourselves and other humans.
And that is how, I disagree with some atheists and some religious people, because they can decides in all cases of what matters, is, what matters to them. They are all regardless of how they arrive at it with Objective Authority, because down to any single individual, they can judge the other as being right or wrong for any personal beliefs.

I even as an atheist leave that to God. God is the only one capable of that. I don't judge on humans in that sense. I agree or disagree with them, but I don't judge them as individuals for their Objective Worth.
I judge myself and others in an intersubjective way. What matters, is subjective and what matters intersubjectively, is that we matter to each other in general aspects and for the individual differences.

Always keep in mind that no matter what reality is, is not that, which matters. What matters, is that it matters and that is subjective and if you include other humans, it becomes intersubjective. There is the "we" and I think we share that, despite being different, because what we have in common, are faith in humans.
Find that, faith in the good in humans is a leap of faith even for me as an atheist.

That is the core. Faith in that "I" can judge other humans OR faith in the good in all humans despite differences.
It always in practice boils down to ethics; i.e. what matters. That "I" can judge other humans or if "I" believe in other humans.

Now continue your life and I wish you a good life. How ever you believe as long as you believe in the good in other humans, we are a "we".
I will leave, because I have another thread, where I debate some of the Objective Authority believers.

May your faith be with you!!!

Thanks for taking the time to respond with your thoughts and encouragement TJ. If I understand you well, I think we can agree that it's better to be part of a community/society that is committed to valuing and respecting one another, despite fundamental differences in thinking, than one that insists everyone think the same way.

That is a big part of why I chose this forum to have this discussion

 

[attempt5001]

This reply is more the sort of information I was after, so pardon if I move to here. I think I understand where you are. Even asking and pursuing these questions is exceptional, as most folks don't dare think about them.

I am going to read the better questions and better responses than I am capable of along with you. You're a thoughtful person, you'll get where you want to go. Happy trails to you.

Not a problem at all TGF. Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I have to admit, I expected a pretty harsh response when I started this thread and have been touched by the kind and thoughtful responses, including the challenges and critiques. It encourages my "faith" in humanity

 

[attempt5001]

Actually, I'm a middle-aged, suburban, heterosexual woman. I realize that it would have been better if I had told my then future husband this when we were dating, but then, I've made a lot of bad decisions in my life. I did tell him that I was lapsed. As I recall his attitude was that we can fix that by going to church. Otherwise, we'll leave discussions of my marriage to some other time and place, as they are not relevant to OP's discussion.

Thanks for sharing nonetheless though sylvan. Navigating relationships (especially family) is definitely pertinent to the discussion and your experience is no doubt one that many share.

 

[ynot]

I have to admit, I expected a pretty harsh response when I started this thread

Well I tried

 

[The Greater Fool]

Not a problem at all TGF. Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I have to admit, I expected a pretty harsh response when I started this thread and have been touched by the kind and thoughtful responses, including the challenges and critiques. It encourages my "faith" in humanity

You get a pass for your first 100 posts, then...