Balancing Skepticism and Faith

[attempt5001]

I have a hard time understanding what your faith is: On the one hand, you describe yourself as a "critical thinker with open eyes/mind" who is into skepticism, and on the other hand, you talk about an "inevitable (and increasing over the last number of years) tension/conflict" between this skepticism and your faith. However, when you talk about your faith, I notice that you don't really describe your faith. What you describe is your appreciation of your interaction with people of faith.
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the "tension/conflict" you're talking about might be a conflict between your skepticism and the people you associate with, rather than between two views of the world.
Have you been open about your skepticism? Do you fear how your religious friends, family and acquaintances will react if they find out about it?
If your friendships are as sincere as you claim they are, wouldn't they survive even if you were open about your critical thinking? However, if their kindness and goodness are contingent on sharing the Christian faith, maybe they aren't as genuinely kind and good as you would like to think ...

Thanks for the thoughtful (and insightful) reply dann. I'm hesitant to describe my own faith mostly because it's in transition right now, and therefore hard to articulate. A big part of the tension is that I have removed myself almost entirely from my "faith community" (church) for some time to try to give myself some space for new perspective. Frankly, it's been hard and disorienting, but I know that this is to be expected with a change like this. It's resulting in my rethinking, but not abandoning, my faith. It's also affected some friendships; not overly negatively, but without a weekly scheduled church meeting, it can be hard to keep in touch as regularly.

Anyway, this discussion is actually part of my process of reorienting my faith, which is why I'm grateful for the responses and trying to respond to each.

 

[attempt5001]

I appreciate your thoughtful answers. I don't mean to sound aggressive, and my questions sincere, so error on the side of charity in the following.

I get exploring objective truth with scientific approach. No confusion here.

But morality, hope, kindness, etc. I'm not seeing a relationship to faith. Do you take subjective truth about any of these on faith (which to me means, without evidence)? I find my choices in morality, hope, kindness have no faith component. Perhaps you are using a different meaning to faith?

Grace is god's favor. This, to me, is a minefield, both in the seeking and finding. Does one make decisions on morality, hope, kindness because god says so to gain his favor? Or does his favor grant special wisdom figuring out the others? Or does grace grant faith? Help me understand your view.

In relation to morality, hope, kindness, etc. how/where does faith come into play? I have those things, and as far as I can tell, faith nor grace enter the equation.

I was a believer in my youth and understand faith, but it never entered morality, hope, kindness choices. In fact, demands of me to accept a any sort of truth on faith never felt right. Even subjective truth, I want the pros and cons. Thus, I'm not getting the tension.

Thanks for the preface TGF. Appreciated and understood.

I think for me (and many people I know), faith has contributed towards a commitment to love, hope, peace, patience etc. Not that I/we wouldn't exhibit those traits otherwise, but faith has encouraged a greater consistency there, particularly in situations when it's tempting to choose anger, bitterness, resentment etc. I credit faith with encouraging me that it's possible to be better than I would otherwise be inclined to be.

The skeptical side of me says "that's just me being the person I want to be and attributing it to faith because of a religious upbringing", but there is tension in that I feel that without faith, I would have struggled more to be that person. Not sure if I'm articulating that very well.

 

[attempt5001]

Hi attempt5001 (how did the previous 5000 attempts go? ), and welcome. Rather than how your thinking would have been affected, I was was questioning how your “tremendously positive experience“ of Christian life might have been affected in different circumstances. My post was nothing to do with eliminating faith, it was to do with challenging your implication (at the very least) that your “tremendously positive experience“ of life was due to Christian faith/religion rather than merely decent people being decent to others, regardless of their faith/religion, or whether or not they even have any.


Sorry if my tone offended you. It was meant as “straight talk” rather than “hate talk”. After having spent so many years debating on this forum I’ve come to favour “tell it like it is” rather than “let’s be nice”.


Exactly

Thanks for the welcome ynot, and for the follow up. (It felt like ~5000 failed attempts to come up with a unique - and ideally witty - username before I tried this one and figured one out of two was good enough).

I appreciate the clarification about the tone and I understand. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt moving forward that you're aiming for efficient, not offensive.

It's a fair point that my association between positive experience and faith is purely anecdotal and based on a relatively small sample size. And I agree that many kind, decent, considerate people behave in such a way without attributing it to faith. I actually think of "decent people being decent to others" more and more as an expression of faith, not in a particular religion or dogma, but as an acknowledgment of the value of "goodness" beyond just what is immediately beneficial to the individual. It's also interesting how much faith thrives under persecution; perhaps because it contrasts "goodness" with the alternative.

 

[attempt5001]

I'm a long way from the God belief I had in my Christian youth, and yet I've never lost my Faith. Instead its expansion was integral with my letting go of belief in a parental supreme being.

Faith is our capacity to accept and affirm reality as it is beyond our fantasies of how it is supposed to be. Faith is our solidarity with reality and inter-participation.

I found that the Christian God was not only too small and narrow-hearted for an Open Faith, but carried belief baggage that simply refused to be transferred on my journey.

I don't mind using the word, "God" in a metaphorical way. It has always been that in our faith languages. We just continue to forget that Being transcends any kind of super-existing individual. The Divine is a quality of relationship we have with ourselves, the world, and each other, in which we all are Holy.

In pith: I believe in Grace.

Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience Apathia. I'm not sure I understand it completely, but I am having a hard time articulating exactly what my faith is/means, so I appreciate your efforts to express yours.

 

[attempt5001]

The message I received was that his/her positive experiences were attributed to the Christian faith/religion rather than the decency of the people. Perhaps I got that message wrong?

Not an incorrect interpretation, but not totally spot on. I, and many I know well, would say that faith has helped us to be more consistently decent (kind, forgiving, compassionate etc.) That is definitely a big part of why I am very hesitant to abandon it. Not that I think I'll become a heartless jerk, but I feel it's been valuable and helpful.

 

[attempt5001]

I also grew up in a Christian home, went to parochial schools (Lutheran), whole nine yards. Walked away from it in high school - well maybe galloped away.
Mainly because of what I feel is an over-dependence on faith (in Christianity) - given a reality close at hand - why rely on faith when knowledge and understanding are available?
The role of faith - in my opinion - should be to get one off the couch. Once off the couch and in the game (like training for a marathon), your actions should be rewarded - there should be reinforcing sign posts.
So stop carrying around the faith and look to the reality right in front of you. So, if we assume for the moment God is real, and you have reality close at hand - How would you proceed?

I feel that there's no reason to let go of the faith that got you into the race once you're on your way. For example I want to hold onto a faith that expresses a belief that mankind is capable of responsibly and sustainably governing the earth, while I work towards positive environmental change; and is capable of understanding social justice while working towards eliminating poverty; and is capable of peace and joy and hope while working to end conflict.

I like your idea of faith getting you off the couch. I think it also keeps you going when the race is long as well.

 

[attempt5001]

These attributes describe my dogs quite well. Well maybe not the "self-control" part, . I came to this forum years ago by way of the '9/11 Conspiracy Theories' subforum, so pardon me if I'm a skeptic on your true motivations, attempt5001. That said, I can somewhat relate to your position. I was never really a believer, although I grew up nominally Catholic. I'm now firmly an atheist, yet I attend the RC church with my spouse, who doesn't know anything about my beliefs (or lack thereof).

The idea of a tension suggests that you are being pulled in two directions and maybe feel that one or the other must eventually win out. Does that concern you? Are you able to get to the absolute core of where your skepticism lies? Or is this not something you have explored in enough depth because you are afraid of what the outcome will be?

No offence at all about being skeptical of my motivations sylvan. Understandable, particularly given my difficulty articulating my own position. I can only assert that my intentions are genuine and thank you and the others who have participated in the discussion for the helpful food for thought and the challenge to think through and express myself more clearly.

Yes, I have some concern about the tension, but I think it's towards a new (though not necessarily permanent) balance point, which has always been part of my faith. It's a more dramatic change than I've had before, but right now I don't feel that one has to win-out entirely. I am still exploring my skepticism for sure, perhaps with some fear, though I would use the word caution It mostly lies with claims towards exclusive access to truth and revelation.

 

[ynot]

Not an incorrect interpretation, but not totally spot on. I, and many I know well, would say that faith has helped us to be more consistently decent (kind, forgiving, compassionate etc.) That is definitely a big part of why I am very hesitant to abandon it. Not that I think I'll become a heartless jerk, but I feel it's been valuable and helpful.

You started your OP by crediting your tremendously positive life experience to Christianity and faith/religion . . .

I grew up in a Christian home and have interacted with a variety of Christian people, groups, organizations in a variety of roles throughout my life. With very few (minor) exceptions, it's been a tremendously positive experience; great family, sincere friendships, supportive and caring communities, people's lives changed for the better time and time again thanks to generous, compassionate and selfless expressions of faith. I think I've experienced some of the best that faith/religion has to offer.

It’s reasonable to conclude therefore that by using only “faith” in your post I'm directly replying to, you mean “Christian/religious faith”. This seems confirmed by your concern that abandoning Christianity would be abandoning your faith. For clarity, please confirm that when you only use the word “faith" in your recent posts you still talking about Christian/religious faith. Thanks.

 

[attempt5001]

If my understanding of modern physical theory is correct, there is no threshold between them. They are the same thing.





Why Jesus? Why not Shiva? Or Zeus? or Amaterasu?

In fact, why your particular brand of Christianity and not another one; why Protestantism and not Catholicism, or vice versa?

If you want to examine the tension between your faith and your skepticism, perhaps you could look at some of the beliefs you hold -- on both sides -- and see where the evidence leads you.

Thanks for the thoughts xterra. The energy/matter metaphor certainly isn't perfect, but I find it helpful, perhaps precisely because they are ultimately the same thing, (albeit with a massive potential energy barrier between them).

And quite right on the second point. I'm using the image I'm familiar with, but your follow up question is valid and is one of many along those lines I am asking myself at present.

 

[attempt5001]

You started your OP by crediting your tremendously positive life experience to Christianity and faith/religion . . .

It’s reasonable to conclude therefore that by “faith” in your post I'm directly replying to, you mean “Christian/religious faith”. This seems confirmed by your concern that abandoning Christianity would be abandoning your faith. When you only use the word “faith" in your recent posts are you still talking about Christian/religious faith?

Yes, but I think that's because it's the only context for faith I have known personally. But when I say I'm exploring or re-orienting my faith, I don't mean I am looking to exchange Christian faith for a different religious faith. I mean I am thinking through what elements of that Christian faith background I value outside of the context of doctrine. (You are doing a better job asking clear questions than I am able to do giving clear answers)

 

[attempt5001]

Again. Thanks all for the discussion. I will be offline for a bit, but will check back in as soon as I can.

 

[attempt5001]

I'll just note that my list was not meant to be comprehensive or dismissive. In looking it over it seemed like I was saying your church group was nothing special. That is really the opposite of what I was trying to convey. The fact that you found a community that works really well for you and your family is nothing to set aside easily. There are lots of good people in the world, but that does not devalue the specific good people you have found in your life. I would cherish that group, even if the beliefs that the group was based on are not so central to your life.

Even Mother Teresa doubted the existence and holiness of God. That us normal working folks haven't nailed that stuff down should be unsurprising.

Meant to reply to this before my last post. Much appreciated DrK. I didn't think your first post was dismissive, but I appreciate the clarification and encouragement.

 

[ynot]

Yes, but I think that's because it's the only context for faith I have known personally. But when I say I'm exploring or re-orienting my faith, I don't mean I am looking to exchange Christian faith for a different religious faith. I mean I am thinking through what elements of that Christian faith background I value outside of the context of doctrine. (You are doing a better job asking clear questions than I am able to do giving clear answers)

You’re doing fine (I've seen plenty much worse).

I don’t particularly like or use the word “faith”, mainly because of it’s theistic associations and connotations. I prefer the word “trust”. Perhaps if you “abandon” theism you might also consider abandoning the word “faith” to avoid any ambiguity (keep the wheat, throw out the chaff). Just a suggestion .

 

[xterra]

And quite right on the second point. I'm using the image I'm familiar with, but your follow up question is valid and is one of many along those lines I am asking myself at present.

The problem with the image you use is the "baggage," the background and assumptions and years of [I hesitated here looking for a word] acquiescence that accompany the image, the idea.

I thought about putting the following anecdotes in my original comment, but decided to wait to see your response to my "why not" question. But since you understand the point, here goes:

I was with a friend in Colorado some years ago. We were camped in the mountains and came into town looking for a grocery store. I saw a sign and told him to turn at the Presbyterian church.

Being a very devout Catholic, he became quite angry and said, "That's NOT a church!! Churches are Catholic!"

"Okay," I said, "turn at the brown building."

Amusing, right?

Here is the other half. I had another friend who is rabidly fundamentalist. To him Catholics are idol worshippers who should be ...annihilated in some fashion or other. It was never clear to me whether he meant physically or just religiously. It was also never quite clear why he wanted to be friends with me, knowing that I am an atheist.

Our friendship ended when he once again told me his belief was not based on blind faith because he had had a personal experience. When I said that his experience did not give me a reason to believe, he emailed to say that I was calling him a liar -- and concluded with this:

As you leave your body upon your death, you will realize then, that you still exist. Fear will overwhelm you, suddenly realizing you should have listened to your Christian friends that only wanted the best for you, and give you an eternal pathway to happiness.

Sadly, you've ignored us all, and Satan will welcome you with great laughter at your stupidity.

I am not accusing you of either of these attitudes, but the assumptions and ideas remain at the base of Christianity. This doesn't mean that other religions aren't equally fallacious, but this is the one you are familiar with.




I will edit this to second ynot's suggestion that "faith" might not be the word you want. To me, faith is believing in things for which there is no evidence.

 

[Apathia]

Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience Apathia. I'm not sure I understand it completely, but I am having a hard time articulating exactly what my faith is/means, so I appreciate your efforts to express yours.

I crammed a whole lot into a single post, figuring there would be at least one element you'd relate to.

An important aspect of my Faith is that I trust others to their process. I don't have any teaching to propagate. Blessings on your journey of discovering what Faith means to you. That's the best part of it.

What I wanted to say is that a person can find a spiritual perspective in hir life that doesn't require s/he suspend critical thinking for religious beliefs.

 

[dann]

I'm now firmly an atheist, yet I attend the RC church with my spouse, who doesn't know anything about my beliefs (or lack thereof).

You probably do this because you love your spouse and don't want to hurt her (based on your sig name, I assume that you're male; I also assume that you're heterosexual), but how would you like to be the one who were cheated in this way? I can only speak for myself, but I would hate it and feel betrayed, except that I wouldn't know, of course, which I would also hate ... if I knew ...

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Welcome to the forum attempt5001,

In answer to your post, one of the things you could do is study the myriad other faiths out there and see if you follow your faith because you truly believe it to be the actual true one, or whether you have been told it's the true faith by your parents and family / friends for the majority of your life.

I am also assuming there are parts of your faith (which seems to be christian from your posts thus far) that you do not follow, like the bits about slavery or stoning unruly children etc. Have a skeptical look at all the commandments in your faith and how many of those go against your moral code. And if so, how can they be coming from a moral god?

My personal take on both of those is that not all religions can be true, but they can all be false and that humanity on the whole is morally superior to anything dictated by the gods of the major religions, which to me indicates that IF there is a god it does not care what we think of it, let alone demand we worship it.

 

[dann]

Sadly, you've ignored us all, and Satan will welcome you with great laughter at your stupidity.

I am not accusing you of either of these attitudes, but the assumptions and ideas remain at the base of Christianity. This doesn't mean that other religions aren't equally fallacious, but this is the one you are familiar with.

Not necessarily. Some Christians have the attitude you describe: 'I need others to believe; otherwise they threaten my belief, so I feel threatened and get angry with them and would like to see them punished for their sin of not believing.' Others choose to believe that a person't general attitude, their empathy with other people, is what decides if they go to their imagined heaven or hell.
And in my very secularized country, most Christians probably don't believe in a life after death.

 

[Minoosh]

There have been times when I have acted as if there is a God ... in my extremely abstract way ... and frankly, it probably improved my life. If I prayed for, say, courage in a situation, I would find myself acting with courage. The Serenity Prayer has been useful to me in quite a few situations. There is something about asking for help that seems to change something in me. More than doing affirmations. There are secular explanations of course. I don't pray for any given outcome. Mostly I pray for strength and guidance. I have never aligned with any particular religion - they all seem pretty whack when I investigate further.

Christianity especially makes me twitchy. I've never been able to grasp the essential premise - that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I don't even know how that works. Intellectually, I do better with Judaism or even Islam. Praying to God is one thing but praying through an intermediary? I've never understood why that should be necessary. The trinity also baffles me. I'm supposed to pray to Jesus to be heard by God, but Jesus is really God, which makes him his own son ... it seems complicated.

But what really scares me about religion is this: I can pray for guidance, and feel guided to act with courage, compassion, etc. But Osama bin Laden could ask for the same guidance, and feel called to murder thousands of people by flying jets into tall buildings.

I stop short of calling myself an atheist. Some people here think agnostic is a bogus position, but it seems valid to me. Maybe if I had a Ph.D in particle physics I'd be able to say there is no room for God, but I don't; I have to take Hawking's word for that.

 

[ynot]

To me, faith is believing in things for which there is no evidence.

Matt Dillahunty - “Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence”.