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Hawking says there are no gods

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This is becoming quite familiar, you holding other people to a standard you don't adhere to.

Okay, what is science? Is it a secret handshake? No, it is method you can read online about explained by scientists and philosophers. You can even find YouTube videos.
You can learn the basic methodology online.
Some when someone says that they know if there is nothing or anything outside the universe, you can find different takes on that on the internet.

So here it is:
-There can be nothing outside the universe, because there is no time and space. Our calculation show that.
-It is unknown, because knowledge presumes time and space in this universe.

Now since we had the ability to understand each other, we can also understand the thinking of others and check their thinking.

So here is my position based on these 2 and combine with standard experimental/observational science and epistemology.
You can only know what is outside your thinking based on observation. The idea in epistemological rationalism and foundationalism, that you can figure the world in general out by thinking about it, doesn't work.
You can make predictions based on thinking, but you check via observation.
If observation requires that you are in the universe in time and space, you can't observe something, which is not in time and space and not in this universe.
Thus all calculations predict, but are not observations and since knowledge outside thinking in you head requires observation, we can't know anything about not in time and space and not in this universe. It is an unknown.
 
Okay, what is science? Is it a secret handshake? No, it is method you can read online about explained by scientists and philosophers. You can even find YouTube videos.
You can learn the basic methodology online.
Some when someone says that they know if there is nothing or anything outside the universe, you can find different takes on that on the internet.

So here it is:
-There can be nothing outside the universe, because there is no time and space. Our calculation show that.
-It is unknown, because knowledge presumes time and space in this universe.

Now since we had the ability to understand each other, we can also understand the thinking of others and check their thinking.

So here is my position based on these 2 and combine with standard experimental/observational science and epistemology.
You can only know what is outside your thinking based on observation. The idea in epistemological rationalism and foundationalism, that you can figure the world in general out by thinking about it, doesn't work.
You can make predictions based on thinking, but you check via observation.
If observation requires that you are in the universe in time and space, you can't observe something, which is not in time and space and not in this universe.
Thus all calculations predict, but are not observations and since knowledge outside thinking in you head requires observation, we can't know anything about not in time and space and not in this universe. It is an unknown.
Why do you quote a poster and then type a load of gibberish that has nothing to do with the post you quoted?
 
I have never claimed a degree in philosophy...

A carefully worded straw man. You made a claim to expertise and then made a dismissive argument using that claim as a premise. In a public forum where anonymity is enforced, claims to expertise are inherently unverifiable and are therefore a rather poor choice of premise. Arguments where the claim to expertise takes on a character of intimidation are just bad form anywhere, anytime.

...and philosopher is not a protected title.

"Philosophy" and "philosopher" are words that have meanings. When you try to equivocate those meanings, your critics would be remiss in their duty if they did not challenge you. They have challenged you. You responded with snarky comebacks and evasion. Your critics reasonably infer from that defensiveness that it was your intent all along to see how much you could get away with. In other words, your critics called your bluff. That's a fairly legitimate tactic in debate. Don't like it? Don't bluff.

So lay it off.

No.

You tried to use your purported "25 years of study" to intimidate Skeptic Ginger from challenging your homegrown attempts at philosophy. And it is not the first or only time you have tried to lord your supposed superiority as a philosopher over the other posters, myself included. If you cannot abide having your feet held to the fire, don't make claims that invite the kinds of scrutiny that make you uncomfortable.

As for you being able to judge what level of proficiency I have...

You're still trying to make this about someone else. You made a claim that does not stand up to scrutiny, and you have been evasive and dishonest in the discussion of it. Currying sympathy or shifting your responsibility onto other people does not meet the challenges against your claims.

So yes, I am an amateur philosophy, but whether I dabble you can't judge. So stop doing that.

To dabble means to work at something in an irregular or superficial way. That seems to be an accurate description of how you've told us you approach the study of philosophy. If my stating it plainly, in contrast to your diluting it in volumes of equivocal screed, makes you uncomfortable, then that was the point.

Now one can dabble and still achieve a high degree of proficiency. My new colleague is an engineer who does thermal analysis of jet engine designs for Rolls Royce. My grandfather was a frontier blacksmith and later a machinist. My colleague dabbles in baking. My grandfather dabbled in oil painting; he was a Bob Ross devotee before it was cool. Now my colleague's proficiency at baking can be judged in part by his having placed third in an internationally televised baking contest. Someone else judged his ability to bake, according to ostensibly common standards. If I didn't consider myself a competent judge of baking -- and I don't -- then I could place faith in the published judgment of someone else who is recognized as an expert. Similarly my grandfather bartered his paintings for goods and services. Here again, someone else applied a set of standards my grandfather did not invent or control, and judged his work to be successful. If I knew nothing about his ability except that strangers paid or bartered to obtain his work, then this would be evidence that he had attained some objective standard of proficiency. None of this is to say there are indisputable, undebatable standards in either baking or painting. It's to point out that proficiency is most credibly determined by others according to standards the subject doesn't control.

You can't claim that. Despite repeated requests, you cannot name a standard you don't control. Indeed, you're now frantically trying to claim there shouldn't be any standard at all. You cannot show evidence of having met any standard by any judgment besides your own. You decide what the standard should be, if there should even be any, and you decide whether or not you've met that standard and what that means. And you demand that others give you full faith and credit for it. Even worse, you gaslight people according to this imaginary achievement. If they say that what you write doesn't make any sense, you tell them it's because they don't understand it and must not be as proficient in philosophy as you. That's plainly arrogant.

And now, with your bluff laid bare, you're begging for lenience. The answer, rightly so, is no.

As much as you want to lash out at others and try to put them on the spot, question their ability to judge your claims, or suggest that there should be no judgment, the world has already solved the problem of how people who are not themselves experts in a field can weigh others' claims to expertise for evidentiary purposes. And that solution does not rely on the claimant's say-so. That's why we have independent external standards that the claimants don't control. When you can supply that, you can make credible claims to proficiency. If you cannot, then you should not make arguments that require your critics first to accept you as an expert.
 
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How about all the stories where Zeus appeared before mortals, performed great fears of magic and strength, impregnated women who gave birth to children with superhuman capabilities?
If the argument there is also going to be that we shouldn't take any of that literally, and that Zeus never interferes with the mortal world in such crude ways, and that we should strive to seek the deeper spiritual truth of those stories, then there is no distinction between a god and a story about a god.
If you've accepted that it's all metaphors and stories, and that the gods never do what they do in those stories, then there's no use in looking for them [and, there's do difference between that and fiction.]
ftfy
 
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This part is Tommy’s actual position...



This part is the straw man that he was never arguing. Is it because his actual position is so basic and axiomatic that everyone wants to shift it a few tracks over so that it’s something you can argue about? SG keeps arguing that there’s a lot of scientific reasons for the morals people have, when Tommy already completely agrees with that.

The honest responses are the posters who say “well sounds like your position is x and that’s just useless so quit it.”

My position X is that there is a non-reductive aspect to morality in regards to observation. The quality of "like/don't like" can't be accessed through observation and all cases of useful, meaningful, works, makes sense, what matters and so on are, if followed back to where they originate, from an evaluation in a given brain.
That is useless to some people, because they believe they can do it without an evaluation in a given brain and they are not aware that they are doing that evaluation.
There is a difference between what the universe is and if the universe matters as back to "...What role is there for God?"(From OP) One is if you ask if you need God to explain the universe and the other is if you ask if God matters? The latter is belief and the former is science. At least within methodological naturalism.
And then we end up with the question of magisteria? To me that are none for all of the universe. Of course some claim Science, other Philosophy and yet other Religion.

So my X is useless to others and useful to me and I accept that. They should just stop claiming reason, logic, evidence and so on for, which there is none.
Useful and useless are personal evaluations and sometimes inter-personal.
 
... SG keeps arguing that there’s a lot of scientific reasons for the morals people have, when Tommy already completely agrees with that.

The honest responses are the posters who say “well sounds like your position is x and that’s just useless so quit it.”
That's only part of what I said.

First, the idea science (which is a process not a sentient being :rolleyes: ) tells people what to do is ludicrous. That blurs the whole 'do we have choices' argument with 'science' making those choices, or something, whatever. That's quite the stretch from using the scientific process to determine 'better', prettier, love and so on.

What I said was when one approaches questions of morality and the other subjective values using the scientific process there are ways to develop one's measurement scales. For example standard deviation from the mean is used in such research as are other means of establishing the scale one uses to measure.

The whole argument segregating certain things from the scientific process because there is no physical measurement scale is an old fashion POV.
 
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For example: when a Christian claims that the sacred host contains de body of Christ his belief wouldn't be refuted by a chemical analysis of the host.

Yes. A chemical anlysis showing no longpig absolutely refutes the insane belief that someone is actually consuming the body of a man. It doesn't matter how much you, or anyone else want to believe that there's another layer of reality that can only be access through really high level theology, it simply isn't true.

All the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change that.
 
That's only part of what I said.

First, the idea science (which is a process not a sentient being :rolleyes: ) tells people what to do is ludicrous. That blurs the whole 'do we have choices' argument with 'science' making those choices, or something, whatever. That's quite the stretch from using the scientific process to determine 'better', prettier, love and so on.

What I said was when one approaches questions of morality and the other subjective values with the scientific process there are ways to develop one's measurement scales. For example standard deviation from the mean is used in such research as are other means of establishing the scale one uses to measure. The whole argument segregating certain things from the scientific process because there is no physical measurement scale is an old fashion POV.

Now tell us, how you determine which scale to use and how to use it?
Remember what is at play. If you do so with a subjective bias, it ain't science. IF you really have solved that it would be great. I would sincerely think you should have a Nobel Peace Price. I mean it.
 
Now tell us, how you determine which scale to use and how to use it?
The scientists roll dice and pick numbers out of hats, of course. :rolleyes:


Remember what is at play. If you do so with a subjective bias, it ain't science.
WTF? Are you now saying half of medical research, most of psychology, 3/4 of psychiatry, and most of sociology among other fields of research don't use science?

:crazy:
 
So let's see who agrees with me that Zeus was claimed to live on Mount Olympus if I type in "where did the Greeks believe Zeus lived" into Google.

Wikipedia
British Museum

And every other link on the first page of results.

Have you considered that it may be you that is wrong on where the ancient Greeks believed their god Zeus lived?

While not supporting the existence of the Greek gods wikipedia also says-:

In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, "Olympus" was the name of the home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the ancient Greek world.[10] This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the "Pan-Hellenic" representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.

Mount Olympus

This does seem to support David Mo's position that the gods weren't believed to reside literally on the geographical Mount Olympus. I think you're arguing past each other, as I understand it his point isn't that the gods exist but only that the Ancient Greeks knew that their gods weren't physically there, had already come up with a way to rationalise that to themselves. That seems reasonable.
 
You guys arguing with Tommy are still arguing point several steps past what he’s talking about.

Let me try (and when I say “Science can” I mean ‘we can use scientific methods for getting information about, etc’).

Science can say a lot about how morality works and how humans got to the frameworks of morality that they use. It can say a lot about what types of moral thinking lead to what kinds of outcomes. It can say a lot about what moral frameworks are going to be most compatible with human populations under given conditions and with given goals, and even help figure out what goals will be most compatible with most humans and what that would look like.

But science as applied to morality isn’t turtles all the way down. It’s not even FOR saying anything less recursive at its rock-bottom layer than ‘we can maximize humans’ physical and mental health under such-and-such conditions by doing so-and-so, and one of those is valuing the maximization of humans’ physical and mental health.’
 
Yes, and they lead to the fact that there is no truth for what good and bad is. In other words in scientific terms that is no evidence possible.
If realism in meta-ethics was true, you could use science on good and bad. Realism in meta-ethics is not true and that translates to no evidence in science.

In other words, good and bad can't be replicated using the scientific method. Scientists can observe that humans do morality and explain that using science, but you can't do morality using science.

And that is where this "derail" started. You claim you can use science not just to explain morality, but do morality. The former is true, that latter is not.
This was an intersting talk by Sam Harris called Science can answer moral questions. Problem with philosophy is it cannot prove that science cannot be used to inform moral judgements. :p

I wouldn't say I am undecided about this, but I have listened to counter arguments and am still not convinced that Sam is necessarily wrong. I don't agree with everything Sam Harris says. But it is very convincing for me anyway. There are many blogs on his talk debunking this claim, which is what you would expect since it's quite controversial.

Personally I don't see an absolute morality handed down from a God because I see no evidence for that at all. but morality does exist. I also don't think moral decisions are always simple, and I can see where some cultural differences can muddy the water (for good people to do bad things takes religion) but I do think generally people find their morality based on well being, after all that’s all we have - and it can be shown that people do make moral decisions, they decide based on whats right based on well being when they are not following a divisive dogmatic controlling doctrine.
 
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Well, yes, there is this thing we call time and we know it exists because we can measure it and it is involved in the basic laws of the universe but try and define what that thing is exactly without referencing the thing itself. We can define all the other aspects of the universe without referencing them but not time.
Time is very much like space. It is the separation between events.



Yes, there is no reason time shouldn't run backwards but it doesn't and that maybe because of the law of entropy. If time ran backward the law of entropy would have to reverse which is not possible in this universe.

Time doesn't "run", it just is. That symmetry between past and future is real.

The laws of physics are (basically) symmetric under time-reversal, but the universe itself isn't symmetric: there is a period of very low entropy in the past, and that defines a direction toward the past that is distinct from toward the future.

The laws of physics are also symmetric under translations in space, but the earth locally isn't: the earth's gravitational field defines a direction of up that is distinct from down.

Both of these differences are differences in the way matter/energy is arranged in space-time: the dimensions of space-time still follow these basic underlying symmetries.
 
Again people are just getting hung up on the word "science" and freaking out over it.

Call it whatever doesn't trigger you but if how you make a decision and/or determine if new information presented to you is accurate and it doesn't use the tools that make up science; falsfiability, experimentation, repeatable results, removal of altering factors to determine exact causes and effects what you are doing is outright guessing fancied up with creative writing at best, outright spreading potentially dangerous falsehoods at worst, as often as not while adopting the persona of a pompous person passing off gibberish and word salad as some sort of clever knowledge bomb.

I still argue this is all just the manifestation of a very, very strawman version of science; a cold, straw Vulcan logisticism that can only answer question in cold, sterile labs and has little to now answer for "real world."

And again sometimes the answer to a question is "This question is not valid" or "This question does not make sense." Even a yes or no question can be answered with "Null."
 
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That symmetry between past and future is real.

The laws of physics are (basically) symmetric under time-reversal, but the universe itself isn't symmetric: there is a period of very low entropy in the past, and that defines a direction toward the past that is distinct from toward the future.

The laws of physics are also symmetric under translations in space, but the earth locally isn't: the earth's gravitational field defines a direction of up that is distinct from down.

Both of these differences are differences in the way matter/energy is arranged in space-time: the dimensions of space-time still follow these basic underlying symmetries.

And this is where I tap out. That is WAY over my head. Starting with the laws of physics being symmetrical, I'm lost.

Is it really "just" or primarily entropy differences between two points in time which prevent backwards travel/motion in time?

What does "The laws of physics are also symmetric under translations in space" mean?
 
This was an intersting talk by Sam Harris called Science can answer moral questions. Problem with philosophy is it cannot prove that science cannot be used to inform moral judgements. :p

I wouldn't say I am undecided about this, but I have listened to counter arguments and am still not convinced that Sam is necessarily wrong. I don't agree with everything Sam Harris says. But it is very convincing for me anyway. There are many blogs on his talk debunking this claim, which is what you would expect since it's quite controversial.

Personally I don't see an absolute morality handed down from a God because I see no evidence for that at all. but morality does exist. I also don't think moral decisions are always simple, and I can see where some cultural differences can muddy the water (for good people to do bad things takes religion) but I do think generally people find their morality based on well being, after all that’s all we have - and it can be shown that people do make moral decisions, they decide based on whats right based on well being when they are not following a divisive dogmatic controlling doctrine.

Not a magic sky daddy, check.
Not pixie dust, check.
Multifactorial, obviously.

Nature and nurture (including cultural influences) .... Ding ding ding.

If one is going to claim anything else you need to say what it is. Otherwise you are asserting magical morality of some kind and we have no evidence of that.
 
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Time is very much like space. It is the separation between events.

Time doesn't "run", it just is. That symmetry between past and future is real.
Time is stuff “running” from event to event.

Time as a measurement is events separated by events.

An event is an instance of "now".

Space as a distance is stuff separated by stuff.

Stuff is that which exists and "just is".
 
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