Hawking says there are no gods

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If you’re referencing an earlier post (#2746) that wasn’t anything to do with the post you quoted and responded to (#2750) with (#2758), and which I response to with (#2762), don’t you think an honest communicator should make it clear?

It's like you're deliberately making your communications confusing for some ulterior motive.
BadBoy: "but we can't rule IN alternatives without evidence".
Ynot: "The default scientific position is to not rule IN the existence of things for which there is no evidence".

Why don't you just admit that you picked the wrong post initially instead of trying to make it sound as if you said something completely different? The subsequent posts that you list were a continuation of the same discussion.

Here are the posts you list in full:
Who said it is?

Beyond what "science" can answer, all we have is postulates, theories and hypotheses. We might have reason to prefer one theory over another (being the "most likely" explanation) but we can't rule out alternatives without proof but we can't rule IN alternatives without evidence.

And that is just about scientific theories. You can't sprout a bunch of philosophies and rationalizations and call them science.
Fixed that for you :)

I kind of meant that we don't want to go down the road of "we don't know what caused the big bang, so universe creating pixies may have done it".
That is not a scientific conclusion.

We can't scientifically test for supernatural causes but that doesn't mean that we can rule out their existence. We can only start with a basic position which in science is that everything has a natural cause (with some randomness thrown in for good measure).
The default scientific position is to not rule IN the existence of things for which there is no evidence.

It's only believers and idiots that rule things in without evidence.

The supernatural can be ruled out because anything with any potential to ever be known via evidence isn't supernatural. It's merely natural that hasn't as yet been discovered.
 
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BadBoy: "but we can't rule IN alternatives without evidence".
Ynot: "The default scientific position is to not rule IN the existence of things for which there is no evidence".

Why don't you just admit that you picked the wrong post initially instead of trying to make it sound as if you said something completely different? The subsequent posts that you list were a continuation of the same discussion

"Why don't you just admit the two sides of his hair-split instead of trying to make it sound like I'm just making a distinction without difference."
 
Newton was a believer, but one who rejected certain teachings, in favour of his own beliefs. From here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism.[9][21][22] 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'.[23] As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton allegedly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul,[9] a personal devil and literal demons.​

At Newton's time, not believing in some god in any way would have been extremely controversial. He was deep in a religiously based society. It is very difficult for modern people in secular, democratic societies with constitutional freedom of faith to understand what it would mean in his time to actually reject religion.

Hans
 
BadBoy: "but we can't rule IN alternatives without evidence".
Ynot: "The default scientific position is to not rule IN the existence of things for which there is no evidence".

Why don't you just admit that you picked the wrong post initially instead of trying to make it sound as if you said something completely different? The subsequent posts that you list were a continuation of the same discussion.

Here are the posts you list in full:
I hadn't read BadBoy's post (#2746) until you provided a link to it. That we independently used similar words merely represents appropriate responses to a biased "We can't rule supernatural out" chant. Why is it never "We can't rule supernatural in or out unless and until there is something of substance to rule on"?
 
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Maybe it's not holistic enough. We should ask Jabba's neutral audience.

Indeed, the argument is similar to Jabba's. The claimant invents some individual way of thinking, then declares himself to be the most adept in it. Jabba co-opted the term "holistic thinking" as a euphemism for asserting whatever he wanted without proof. Then he declared all his critics couldn't possibly understand his argument, since to do so would require "holistic thinking" and none of his critics were any good at that. Similarly Tommy co-opts the term "philosophy" to mean his private brand of thinking, bits and pieces borrowed from a haphazard stroll through one corner of the field. And if we don't see the genius in it, we're just not good at "philosophy."

If there are no reasonable or objective standards in philosophy, and no right or wrong answers, then Tommy simply doesn't have the logical foundation from which to claim Skeptic Ginger can't possibly grasp his brilliant philosophical thesis, and cogently oppose it. If standards do exist, then Tommy's critics have an obligation to test the claim of superiority on which he built the argument. The standards don't have to be what the academic world uses, but those do exist. Tommy said there aren't any standards for measuring philosophical knowledge as with nursing knowledge, but in fact there are. If that's not the standard he meant when describing his own proficiency, then he has to be able to explain the standard he did use to determine he had a firm grasp on philosophy while Skeptic Ginger did not. If he can't or won't, then his premise falls.

Keep in mind there's a difference between saying, "Philosophy disagrees with a scientific claim that there's no god," and "Because I'm an expert in philosophy, I can say it's wrong to claim scientifically that there is no god." Tommy may have tried to start with the former, but he has crossed over into the latter. With any luck, he'll reel himself back.
 
Since you're evading the question of measuring and adjudicating knowledge, I conclude you don't want those questions asked of you. From that defensiveness I hypothesize you have no formal education in philosophy and that your mastery of the field has never been measured. As to how that is customarily done, see my previous posts.

The problem is that you've made a claim to expertise and used that as a premise to a dismissive argument. Reading the thread, I don't see many here who consider you competent in philosophy. Hence we need to discover what exactly you mean by "25 years of studying philosophy." To what extent can we be assured it grants you a basis of understanding from which you can give a credible sweeping dismissal? One that would have evidentiary value.

You could have answered my question simply and honestly. You could have said, "I don't have a degree in philosophy; all my study has been personal." We could have better known from that to what degree we can trust your knowledge. Instead you've been evasive. You tried to deflect the question in a snarky way, then you tried to argue that it was meaningless. (It isn't.) Why the dishonesty? Were you trying to create an impression you knew wasn't strictly true? To what extent, then, are you arguing here in good faith? Do you really have expert philosophical insight into how Stephen Hawking views the existence of a god? Or are you just trying to look cool? If the latter, then to what extent are you justified in expecting people to engage you?

Your still overlooking a third possible.
I have worked for 16 years in a teaching institution. 2 of my coworkers were philosophers. Now both, when asked how many philosophers there was, would answer 3. So am I a philosopher?
Well, that depends on what you take for granted?
I have studied philosophy at the university, but due to illness I never got a degree.
Now that means that there is less chance of a chance than for a philosopher with a degree, that I am one. But the chance is not zero.
How? Because philosophy doesn't require a degree to do it. If that was the case, then universities would never have come into existence, because they started out manned by people, who didn't have degrees.

So we are at an impasse. You will subjectively claim that it means I can't be a philosopher. Others, who have know me for years and have varying university degrees and have debated me, will claim I am one.
So am I one?
Well, that depends on what you and everybody else take for granted and that varies.

So something else.
Please use critical thinking on this:
All thinking is a process of identification and integration. Man perceives a blob of color; by integrating the evidence of his sight and his touch, he learns to identify it as a solid object; he learns to identify the object as a table; he learns that the table is made of wood; he learns that the wood consists of cells, that the cells consist of molecules, that the molecules consist of atoms. All through this process, the work of his mind consists of answers to a single question: What is it? His means to establish the truth of his answers is logic, and logic rests on the axiom that existence exists. Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. An atom is itself, and so is the universe; neither can contradict its own identity; nor can a part contradict the whole. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/logic.html

And now something else: Moral relativism.
https://www.iep.utm.edu/moral-re/
Now you ask Skeptic Ginger the same, you ask of me. To account for the link including 1.a. Ancient Greece and then stop.

Now for your other post.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12518054&postcount=2813

There's an irony in playing the "Oh crap I left the stove on" excuse when you're entire argument is a thousand word salad variations on "reality isn't really real."

There is limit to what we can say of reality independent of humans. What is real, is what is real to humans. The word "real" is not a property of the universe independent of humans. So reality is neither really real or unreal.
And as long as you are unable to even tackle this, I will treat you as unable to understand philosophy:
Austin highlights the complexities proper to the uses of ‘real’ by observing that it is (i) a substantive-hungry word that often plays the role of (ii) adjuster-word, a word by means of which “other words are adjusted to meet the innumerable and unforeseeable demands of world upon language” (Austin 1962a, 73). Like ‘good,’ it is (iii) a dimension-word, that is, “the most general and comprehensive term in a whole group of terms of the same kind, terms that fulfil the same function” (Austin 1962a, 71): that is, ‘true,’ ‘proper,’ ‘genuine,’ ‘live,’ ‘natural,’ ‘authentic,’ as opposed to terms such as ‘false,’ ‘artificial,’ ‘fake,’ ‘bogus,’ ‘synthetic,’ ‘toy,’ but also to nouns like ‘dream,’ ‘illusion,’ ‘mirage,’ ‘hallucination.’ ‘Real,’ is also (iv) a word whose negative use “wears the trousers” (a trouser-word) (Austin 1962a, 70).

In order to determine the meaning of ‘real’ we have to consider, case by case, the ways and contexts in which it is used. Only by doing so, according to Austin, can we avoid introducing false dichotomies...
https://www.iep.utm.edu/austin/

So what is the standard in philosophy? That you have overall knowledge about the major parts of philosophy and can as you point out compare different POW.

I just did so with "real". I have do so before and all you as a group do is to answer with a straw man; i.e. "reality isn't really real."

Now I will do combine science and morality. You know a hell of a lot about science, so you know this. If you claim something in general it requires direct observation or an instrument calibrated to a scientific standard. It can be field observation or an experiment. There is more, but in experimental/field science, that is necessary as a part of doing science.
That is all we need for ethics, because you just tell me how to observe good in a moral sense or what instrument to calibrate. But you can't. That is Skeptic Ginger's problem. She think that how she thinks is a scientific standard for morality and ethics. That is her problem.

So come on, JayUtah.
Start doing some philosophy yourself. Limit it to the quote from Ayn Rand. And yes, it is a trick, so see if you can spot it.

BTW On the other hand, if you have time, tackle "real"; whether science can be based on, how you think about good; and if you have really good time do a short run down of animal rights and other living things; that is also a subject in philosophy. I.e. e.g. do common lawn grass have rights? And while you are at explain human and political rights.
And just for the fun of it, do a run down of metaphysics, ontology, logic, epistemology, ethics and aesthetics.

But here I will be fair. If you answer with a short run down of the quote by Ayn Rand, I will give you a short run down of metaphysics, ontology, logic, epistemology, ethics and aesthetics. Forget the rest I asked of you. Show that you can do it with the Ayn Rand quote and I will answer with an overview of philosophy and relate to the OP.
 
I have studied philosophy at the university, but due to illness I never got a degree.

Has your knowledge of philosophy ever been tested according to some specific set of criteria?

Because philosophy doesn't require a degree to do it.

But it can still be done well or poorly. You're convinced that you're doing it well, and that others are doing it poorly. By what standard did you convince yourself of that?

So we are at an impasse.

No. As much as you may want that to be the case, you're in a bind. You can either state and defend the standard by which you concluded you were superior to Skeptic Ginger at philosophy, or you can admit that there was no basis for your comparison.

Please try to resolve that without diverting into word-salads on other topics.

I just did so with "real".

And where's the independent adjudication for how well you did it? I can make what passes at one table for bread. That doesn't mean I get to call myself a baker without asking others to relax what they take that to mean.

Start doing some philosophy yourself.

Why? Whether or not I or anyone else is proficient in philosophy has nothing to do with whether you are. You're trying to reflect an uncomfortable question to no effect, as a substitute for having to answer it yourself. Evasion tells a story. You know full well that useful and reasonable standards exist to tell whether someone has correctly apprehended the field of psychology, and you have now admitted you did not meet them. You're therefore trying to establish a different standard of your own invention, ostensibly so that you can claim to have met it.

But here I will be fair. If you answer... [then] I will answer with an overview of philosophy and relate to the OP.

Nice try, but your feeble attempt at deflection fails. You made a claim to expertise which you realized too late you cannot substantiate. In order to save face, you're trying to put someone else on the spot.

You can either substantiate your riposte to Skeptic Ginger, or you can deal with the consequences of its having failed. That's what's fair.
 
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Where did I claim that? I can't see it in the part of my post you quoted . . .
You both changed my argument from "rule OUT" to "rule IN". It's in the very post of yours that you quoted.

If you think that the way you worded it is superior then fine but don't say that I am ruling IN anything.
 
Your still overlooking a third possible.
I have worked for 16 years in a teaching institution. 2 of my coworkers were philosophers. Now both, when asked how many philosophers there was, would answer 3. So am I a philosopher?

Sounds entirely irrelevant to me. Either your claims and ideas can be tested or used, or they are superfluous.
 
You both changed my argument from "rule OUT" to "rule IN". It's in the very post of yours that you quoted.
My post didn't change your post at all, it merely offered an alternative perspective for balance and what I believe is the more appropriate default scientific position. I believe science is more driven to establish what is true rather than what is false.

If you think that the way you worded it is superior then fine but don't say that I am ruling IN anything.
Repeatedly chanting the biased "Science can't rule out supernatural phenomena" is no different than chanting "Science can't disprove god", as if it makes either more likely or possible to be true than not.
 
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Repeatedly chanting "Science can't rule out supernatural phenomena" is no different than chanting "Science can't disprove god", as if it makes either more likely or possible to be true than not.
Aaannnd ... back to the strawman again. This time a magical strawman. :rolleyes:
 
Oh dear, we have to explain what the scientific method is ....... yet again.:(

I must have missed the post where you explain what the scientific method is and why Hawking's theory is actually a fact. Can you please give us the post number?


You must stop misrepresenting what others say psion. :mad:

I did not say "Hawking's theory is actually fact" at all if you would just pay attention. I was merely suggesting, he would have used the scientific method to come to the conclusion, that there was no time for God to exist. Others, with a scant knowledge of what science is, are making suggestions he did not.

The scientific method is psion, (as has been explained countless times by myself and others here), to make observations, then perhaps come up with a hypothesis to explain those observations. When the evidence supporting the hypothesis becomes overwhelming then, and only then, can the word theory be applied.
 
I was merely suggesting, he would have used the scientific method to come to the conclusion, that there was no time for God to exist.
That is a "because Hawking" argument. If you don't know how he arrived at his conclusions then you can't say if his methods were scientific or not.

IOthers, with a scant knowledge of what science is, are making suggestions he did not.
As are others with a great deal more knowledge of science than you possess. They have examined the theories he used to arrive at his conclusion in fine detail in this thread.
 
That is a "because Hawking" argument. If you don't know how he arrived at his conclusions then you can't say if his methods were scientific or not.

Oh yes how silly of me.:o

The world famous theoretical physicist and cosmologist my have just ignored his scientific training on this one and just read some tea leaves, or some other woo he had on hand. Can't know these things for sure can you?:rolleyes:


As are others with a great deal more knowledge of science than you possess. They have examined the theories he used to arrive at his conclusion in fine detail in this thread.


So now you draw into question my own scientific knowledge psion. You certainly are relentless in your persistence to try and gain credibility here.
 
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