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TERFs crash London Pride

This is getting ridiculous. The existence of transwomen doesn't "erase" lesbians, whatever the hell "erase" means in this context. Male-bodied people with male sexual organs insisting that they are lesbians and must be considered as potential sexual partners by lesbian women is what the original protest was about.
 
That's not what this thread was about. This thread, if you read the OP, was about the claim that the existence of transwomen erases the existence of lesbians...

I'm not seeing that at all, and the OP-linked article says:

"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.
"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in."
 
I'm not seeing that at all, and the OP-linked article says:


Nice bit of selective editing there. The article was about a protest by a group calling themselves "Get the L Out". Here is their statement on what they are about:

Why “Get The L Out” ?

Excerpt:
Who We Are

Get the L Out is a group of lesbian and feminist individuals and organisations, opposing the increasingly anti-lesbian and misogynistic LGBT movement and the erasure of lesbians


These are the people who are being explicitly supported by certain people in this thread.

Here's the part that you cherry-picked your quote from:
Get the L Out believes trans politics (with uncritical support from the LGBT movement) does the following:

Promotes the social transition of lesbians, encouraging them to present as straight men thus favouring the pretence of heterosexuality over lesbianism – this is nothing more than a form of conversion therapy.
Promotes the medical transition of lesbians and pushes harmful drugs (untested hormone blockers, Lupron etc.) as well as unnecessary medical practices on perfectly healthy bodies – these are a form of misogynist medical abuse against lesbians.
Promotes the rights of heterosexual males who “identify” as women and lesbians (despite most of them still retaining their male genitals) over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners. This new ‘queer’ LGBT politics thus coerces lesbians to accept the penis as a female organ and promotes heterosexual intercourse between male and female as a form of lesbian sex. This is simply a new facet to rape culture and compulsory heterosexuality.
What we Believe

“The trans movement with the complicity of ‘queer’ LGBT politics is coercing lesbians to have sex with men. We firmly condemn this vicious form of lesbophobia disguised as progress”.


Reading their website beyond this one article also conclusively demonstrates that they are profoundly anti-trans in general, they oppose not only the existence of transwomen, but also of transmen, and promote the conspiracy theory that lesbians are being "erased", their term, by the existence of transpeople and a shadowy cabal of "transactivists" controlling media and social organizations. I recommend actually reading their rhetoric if you want actually understand what is going on here. They deny the existence of transgender identity, and many of their members and supporters have accused all transpeople of being wanna-be rapists and/or mentally ill.

Further, there is no evidence that lesbians are being coerced into having sex with transpeople. None whatsoever. That's the same sort of libel as the assertion by religious right groups that all homosexuals are child molesters or "recruiting" straight children.

As for Rolfe's assertions that she's not anti-trans, well, let's look at the record, shall we?

Her first post in this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12363092#post12363092

The entire post is a link to this site: https://www.peaktrans.org/london-pride-2018-fearless-feminists/
Which is nothing more than the same conspiracy theories and unsupported accusations of lesbians being forced into transitioning or being raped by transpeople. It insists that transpeople do not actually exist, transwomen are nothing but men trying to rape women, and transmen are an attempt by the patriarchy to "erase" lesbians.

And she follows it up with this post: https://www.peaktrans.org/london-pride-2018-fearless-feminists/
The article explains the incident from the point of view of the women. There is no hate there and I entirely concur with the author.


And another one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12365726#post12365726
No comments, just a link to another anti-trans blog. Let's take a look at it
Excerpt:
Only a couple of years ago I was blissfully ignorant of these issues and had no idea that society was heading down a deep, dark rabbit hole called “GENDER”. Now I am acutely aware of the debate, however, and I grow increasingly alarmed about the way women (the class of people with female reproductive anatomy) are being effectively erased. If, as the government intends with proposed self ID legislation, any man can be a woman by simply identifying (you have to say the magic word!) as one, then the word “woman” is rendered meaningless. And if we have no word with which to describe our biological sex, then we cannot challenge the oppression and discrimination inherent in it.

Women are being erased, subsumed, over-ridden… generally swallowed up whole by this well-financed and very powerful trans lobby. Women must shut up, shove up, give up their spaces, their rights, their opportunities, even the very language they need to discuss their lives and experiences… and if they protest they’ll be terrified into silence with screams of “TERF!” and “Bigot!”.


So there is yet another iteration of the conspiracy theory that transpeople are a "powerful lobby" seeking to "erase women" by forcing them to have sex with men, and denies the existence of transgender identity.

And for somewho who claims to not be denying the existence of transpeople, why this insistence on biological essentialism, the insistance in re-defining transgenderism to be, in her words, Supernatural trans-substantiation. There has not been a single post on the subject where she has not equated transgender identity with believing in "magically" changing their genetic makeup.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12366559#post12366559
I don't know what else you'd call it, asserting that a man can actually turn into a woman.


That has been a persistent straw man throughout the thread. What else is that but trans-denialism?

If that's not enough for you, then here's a post where she explicitly denies the validity of transgender identity: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12366599#post12366599

Well of course they're pointing out that these people are not women. Because they're not women. This seems to be the basis for your position, that you demand that others should acknowledge something which is outside actual reality.

Well hey, reality called. These people are not women because a man cannot turn into a woman.


Oh, and she also denies the existence of female-on-female rape (and, I'm assuming, female-on-male rape by extension: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12367132#post12367132
So yes, a woman in prison cannot possibly be raped if there are no men there.


Oh, and then there's this little gem: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12375759#post12375759
Another post with no commentary, just a link, which says this:

Transgender activists don’t admit that this is a metaphysical claim. They don’t want to have the debate on the level of philosophy, so they dress it up as a scientific and medical claim. And they’ve co-opted many professional associations for their cause. Thus the American Psychological Association, in a pamphlet titled “Answers to Your Questions about Transgender People, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression,” tells us, “Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth.” Notice the politicized language: a person’s sex is “assigned at birth.” Back in 2005, even the Human Rights Campaign referred instead to “birth sex” and “physical sex.”


And that's just the start. The entire premise of that article is that trangender identity is nothing but a mental illness. If Rolfe does not believe that, then why link it without comment?

My last link regarding this part of the thread.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12385035#post12385035
And that one where she specifically supports anti-trans rhetoric from an individual, Cathy Brennan, who joined with religious right organizion Pacific Justice Institute, to promote a report that PJJ admitted was falsified, and attempted to convince a transgender teen to commit suicide (more details here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12385549#post12385549).

Not going to dredge up every single instance of the denialism and assertions of a shadowy conspiracy theory of "transactivists" trying to erase women, since there are far too many of them, and there's a limit to both the size of posts allowed here, and my own free time, so I'll just alinks to one of her posts where she cites an anti-gay, anti-trans, religious far-right organization to support her anti-trans rhetoric.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12385617#post12385617

Enjoy!
 
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It varies, but many jurisdictions do include prostitution in general sex offenses.




Assuming that the numbers are accurate, which not having seen the source I cannot speak to, that would mean that transpeople commit sex offenses at roughly the same rate as the general population.

no the rate om average was lower than that significantly. but it seems to simply be a flawed and fudged study.
 
Nice bit of selective editing there.

I didn't selectively edit anything at all. You're the one who said "This thread, if you read the OP, was about the claim that the existence of transwomen erases the existence of lesbians," which is patently untrue.

you cherry-picked your quote from

I didn't "cherry pick" the quote, either. You're having to go far away from the OP and the article the OP links to, to prove a totally different point, one which is not that in "This thread, if you read the OP, was about the claim that the existence of transwomen erases the existence of lesbians."
No idea how you can call that cherry-picking on my end.
 
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I can't believe you're even saying this. It is not possible to convert a biological male into a biological female, no matter what hormones or surgery you employ. The best that can be managed is a cosmetic facsimile of a female body, but even that is a feminised male body. This is reality.

Moreover, the majority (around 80%) of trans-identifying males still have their male genitalia and most of these have absolutely no intention of changing that. Facial feminisation surgery, Adam's-apple reduction and breast implants are more popular than genital surgery.

<snip>

And just how many medical insurance plans cover genital surgery? Does the NHS? It's a tremendously expensive, complicated surgery, unaffordable to many. It's no great wonder then that people would put their money into the surgery that has visible results first. Those surgeries make it easier to get a job and save money - although in this current climate just staying housed is enough of a challenge for middle class and lower.

You tend to frame every part of this as if it's a moral failing or being done out of spite, instead of considering that their might be perfectly legitimate reasons.

It's not a moral failing or being done out of spite, it's simply a choice. I admit it was a surprise to me that the term "pre-op" for a trans person that has not had genital surgery is in fact misleading, but indeed the majority have no intention of having genital surgery. They don't want it. That's fine, but it's highly relevant when it comes to this nonsensical statement that "transwomen are women".


You seem to be studiously avoiding deadrose's main point in your zeal to present transgenderism as "a choice".

Genital SRS costs a lot more than the other procedures you mentioned, and that doesn't include the recovery time lost from work. And the results are not always particularly good, which tends to discourage even those most inclined toward the procedure.

All of those other procedures you mention are basically mainstream, minor surgeries with high probability of excellent outcomes and little downtime after surgery. They aren't even exclusively trans. Standard plastic surgery.

Many tg's simply cannot afford genital SRS, even though the other procedures can be within their reach, although often not easily. Coming out as tg generally puts quite a hit on someone's income.

Perhaps this is your version of "a choice". By the same token someone who buys a used Ford that stretches their budget instead of a new Lamborghini Veneno is simply making "a choice". They could have gotten the Lamborghini if they had just really wanted it badly enough. Somehow. I guess.

It may be a "choice", but it is certainly not "simply a choice".
 
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SRS is free in the UK under the NHS.

I think in the UK, getting SRS or not is a choice.
 
If we move on beyond the reasons for these people retaining their male genitalia (most appear not to want to change that), the fact is that these people have male genitalia. They are members of the male sex. Changing rooms, lavatories, sleeping accommodation and so on are segregated by sex, not by sexual orientation, not by whether someone is wearing a dress or not, and not by a nebulous feeling in anyone's head.


It is up to those advocating for this to be changed to make their case. So far I see nothing more than "we mustn't hurt trans people's feelings". The feelings of women who are facing having their intimate spaces taken away and turned over to male-bodied people as of right don't seem to count. We're like "the very worst people in the world".
 
I'm still not sure what the fear of a penis in the ladies room is. What is the concern?

Is there evidence that the concern is justified?

Is there a list of bad things that have happened where there has been a penis in the ladies room?
 
Changing rooms, lavatories, sleeping accommodation and so on are segregated by sex, .

Are they? I've never had anyone check my genitals upon entering any of these.

Presumably intersex people don't get to swim, pee or sleep then. Poor them.
 
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Intersex people are all either male or female, just with disorders of sexual development. And many of them are extremely vocal about not wanting to have their medical conditions weaponised by the trans campaign.

And yes, in law, these facilities are segregated by sex. The fact that there are no routine checks on this doesn't change the legal situation.
 
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It's in the Equalities Act. Sex is a protected characteristic and the legal provisions for single-sex services are spelled out.
 
It's in the Equalities Act. Sex is a protected characteristic and the legal provisions for single-sex services are spelled out.

The Equalities Act specifically allows for transgender people to use the bathrooms of their preferred gender so I don't know what you mean. It certainly doesn't say that toilets are sex segregated.

It allows for some single-sex services but these are exceptions and have to be justified. So rather it is the opposite of what you claimed - that sex segregation is the norm and Trans-right supporters need to justify change.

In fact the gender recognition changes don't impact the equalities act anyway so nothing is changing in that regard.

If trans people are excluded from a space then making it easier for someone to be officially trans does not pose any threat to sex-segregated spaces.

So which is it?
 
It's in the Equalities Act. Sex is a protected characteristic and the legal provisions for single-sex services are spelled out.

The Equalities Act specifically allows for transgender people to use the bathrooms of their preferred gender so I don't know what you mean. It certainly doesn't say that toilets are sex segregated.

It allows for some single-sex services but these are exceptions and have to be justified. So rather it is the opposite of what you claimed - that sex segregation is the norm and Trans-right supporters need to justify change.

In fact the gender recognition changes don't impact the equalities act anyway so nothing is changing in that regard.

If trans people are excluded from a space then making it easier for someone to be officially trans does not pose any threat to sex-segregated spaces.

So which is it?

It's in the British Standards regulations (sorry couldn't find a link to the actual document). Furthermore required provisions for toilets for females is also in UN regulations (can't immediately find it though, the British standards are pretty much modeled after the UN regulations).
 
It's in the British Standards regulations (sorry couldn't find a link to the actual document). Furthermore required provisions for toilets for females is also in UN regulations (can't immediately find it though, the British standards are pretty much modeled after the UN regulations).

Nope. Nothing in there stipulates that toilets are biological sex segregated by law.

But again... if trans people can be and are excluded from female only safe spaces why would anybody want to fake being trans in order to gain access to those places?

Incidentally as far as I am aware any male in the female toilets is breaking no law provided they don't do anything that would be considered illegal wherever it happened. Of course they can be asked to leave by the owners of the bathrooms.
 
I'm still not sure what the fear of a penis in the ladies room is. What is the concern?


Oh please, everyone knows that the penis is the most evil object in the history of the universe. To catch even the merest glimpse of one is a brutally traumatic experience that can never be healed or recovered from.
 
I didn't selectively edit anything at all. You're the one who said "This thread, if you read the OP, was about the claim that the existence of transwomen erases the existence of lesbians," which is patently untrue.


:rolleyes: Except that that is exactly what it was about. The group who staged the incident said so quite clearly and explicitly, using exactly that language.


You're having to go far away from the OP and the article the OP links to, to prove a totally different point,


By "far" you mean to the statement by the group explicitly named in the OP article who performed the "protest", stating the reasons and motivations for the "protest", and which was partially quoted in the article. And, you know, which has been cited and referenced elsewhere in the thread by Rolfe. You're really grasping at straws here.
 
And just how many medical insurance plans cover genital surgery? Does the NHS?

Yes, it does. It is, of course, one of those specialties that some people are insistent shouldn't be available at a time of constrained budgets, even though they may result in avoiding even greater costs further down the line (e.g. ART).
 
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I'm glad the NHS does. Most US healthcare plans won't. Interestingly, our state's low-income health care covers it in many circumstances, after determining how much it saved in other healthcare costs. That's a recent change though.
 

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