Cont: Deeper than primes - Continuation 2

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Dear Apathia, from http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 and forward you showed very clearly that you understand the core of this thread.

If you wish to open a thread on calculations methods of finitely many things, that is fine, but currently your last posts are off-topic to the core of that thread.

Yes. I've come to see clearly that such is off topic to the "Deeper Than Primes Mathematics" that is the topic of this thread. My apologies for the drift. However I don't regret it, because your response is very important to the ongoing discussion.

I have no desire to continue on about finite or otherwise mathematical calculations. They are indeed not relevant to your subject.
 
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In essence he's saying we can't have a harmonious, peaceful society in which we survive, thrive, and evolve, because our mathematics contains concepts such as Transfinite numbers, Limits, and Infinitesimals that misrepresent Infinity.

I cannot believe you wrote that with a straight face.
 
Beyond multiplicity, beyond divisibility, beyond derivatives and integration, beyond (deeper than) prime numbers, beyond doing calculations.

"Beyond the notion of collections." Yes let's keep moving beyond conceptions!

Dear Apathia, I wrote "also beyond" and not just "beyond".
 
Dear Apathia, I wrote "also beyond" and not just "beyond".

Oops! Sorry I missed that. It's too easy for me to see the "Beyond" as the most important thing in the matter.

In Mahayana Buddhism's great Heart of Wisdom Sutra the reader is urged to go beyond "beyond."
 
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I interrupted Doron's "Baby Steps" process he began in Postcount 3095. So in case I give into the temptation to go back into one of my two or three year long lurkings, I want to return the thread to where it was.

Here are my comments. These won't offer anything new that long term participants haven't realized before, but they put some things into a sharper relief.

Baby steps

My philosophical argument is that the most affective mathematical frameworks are the result of using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning.

One of the most interesting notions of Mathematic is Infinity.

This notion is understood as Actual infinity or Potential infinity.

Here are the interpretations of these notions, according to verbal_symbolic-only reasoning, which is based on the notion of collection of objects (whether they are members of a set, terms of a sequence, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_infinity :
Quote:
In the philosophy of mathematics, the abstraction of actual infinity involves the acceptance (if the axiom of infinity is included) of infinite entities, such as the set of all natural numbers or an infinite sequence of rational numbers, as given, actual, completed objects. This is contrasted with potential infinity, in which a non-terminating process (such as "add 1 to the previous number") produces a sequence with no last element, and each individual result is finite and is achieved in a finite number of steps.

Here is an example of a framework that is based on visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, which is related to the subject at hand.

Participants have asked Doron to define "visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning." Definitions are by their nature Verbal, so they just won't capture this. And I'm only going to give a piss-poor description. The activity in this thread partially demonstrates what Doron calls "visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic." There are elements of using symbols and a perceptual activity. You get some visual symbols and a spatial logic.

The important background structure to this exercise is its organization of cognition, not by classes of things but by a complementary pair. For example you can work from the dichotomy of Empty/Full or Comparison/Contrast. According to Doron all thinking is eventually based on this form. So he's given examples of a number of different X/Y Complements generating different aspects of the notion of numbers. Today's pair are "Non-Complexity" AND "Markers."

I'm going go for some simpler terms that won't satisfy Doron's description entirely but will make things a little less obtuse.

An Important reason why this is said to involve "visual-spatial" is that it is a concrete activity. Doron askes you to do the activity. It may be that if you get a pen and paper and follow (or try to) the instructions, you'll see how the result come right out of the process of the activity.

Let's do it by using, so called, "baby steps", in order to get the notions without being lost among tons of technical expressions.

(1) The Axiom Of Non-Complexity: There exists, at least, object ______ (1-dim object), such that it is not a collection of shorter or shortest objects.

(2) The Axiom Of Markers: Given a collection of shorter or shortest objects, they define values with respect to, at least, object _______

Yes. Don't get lost in the technical expressions. I'm here to try to prevent that. So don't get lost with the word, "Axiom." It's not the same "axiom" you're going to see in a mathematical proof. They are similar only in the sense that they are givens. An X/Y Complementary pair is always of elements that are just there to be seen and used. They're meaning is in relation to each other and the unspoken field in which they exist. It's not going to be of any consequence to get picky over how Doron is using mathematical terms. Just go with the flow.

Non-Complexity here is a line (See it.) It's unbroken and not composed of parts. It doesn't have boundaries either, though for convenience it appears to have length. It doesn't. It's not a Mathematical line ala Euclid and since. It's just an unmarked, unbounded background.

Markers demark, bound, signal out, set aside a region. They are like a wall, or a ditch, or a stop on the way, or even a region themselves separating other regions.

Without (1) there is no, at least, object ______ , and without (2) no value can be defined with respect to, at least, object ______

So a useful mathematical framework, in this case, is based on, at least, (1) and (2).

These two complements are not found without each other, and both are needed to create the simplest of countable objects. (1) is the ground to bounded and (2) makes the boundaries. Then you have regions you can count and sum up to larger regions.

Now we begin the activity:

Let's demonstrate how to use this framework by giving some concrete examples:

a) We wish to provide some value to _____ , and we are doing it by marking its edges by two shortest objects . (2 0-dim objects).

b) The left edge is marked as value 0 and the right edge is marked as value 1, and we get 0______1 , which is the result of using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning skills.

See how "visual_spatial" this is. You have a line (Again this is not your traditional mathematical line. This is a line), and you mark some boundaries. this gives you 1 region, the region of 1 or 0 to 1, if you wish.

(An aside: this is elsewhere the basic notion of "inclusive reckoning" used widely in the Far East where a six month old is already counted as one year old, and if Masako tells you she's 18, watch out!)

c) In the same way, for example, the middle of 0______1 is marked as 1/2 (as described by (d)).

d) By using visual_spatial reasoning skills we get .___.___. and by using also verbal_symbolic reasoning skills we get 0__1/2__1

By continuing this visual_spatial activity (which is also symbolic because we make numerical designations.), we can generate two regions and designate boundaries 0, 1/2, and 1. We are generating countable regions with boundaries and areas that can be designated with a number. This is one of the aspects of Number.

e) By continue to use visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning skills, we get, for example, 0_1/4_1/2__1, 0_1/8_1/4__1/2____1, 0_1/16_1/8__1/4____1/2________1 etc.

Got your ruler, got your pen, continue the activity process.

d) Addition operation among finitely many shorter __ objects that are marked by . along 0_____1, can be added up to value 1, since the complement of any finitely many accurate values of shorter __ , is itself a shorter ___ object with an accurate value.[/OUOTE]

Anywhere or anytime you stop the process, you have a finite number of boundaries and regions. Say you've divided up the original Region One:
0______1 into smaller areas or lots, you can add those back up to the original area.

There is a finite length between the boundaries of Toddler Todd's playpen and the front door. The couch is halfway between the playpen and the door, so Toddler Todd, who has escaped the playpen could be said to have two regions to traverse, but those add up to the original exact one, and Baby Todd makes a finite number of steps and pushes open the screen door and is out! (Except of course his older sister grabs him.)

This is what happens IRL, but now for some more of the verbal_symbolic/visual_spatial of the AND:

e) Addition operation among infinitely many shorter __ objects that are marked by . along 0_____1, can't be added up to value 1, since the complement of any infinitely many accurate values of shorter __ , is itself a shorter ___ object without an accurate value (it is an endlessly more and more shorter __ object that its accurate value (that can be used in order to reach value 1) is undefined, exactly because (by (1)) ______ existence is not defined as a collection of shorter or shortest objects.

Enter the hypothetical that we just keep on doing the process activity that generates numbers indefinitely. This indefinitely points to a notion of a potential infinity. You posit that the activity process does not stop. This is the notion of Infinity: first as the boundless line and then as the never stopping in the Marking.

Baby Todd sets out on an impossible journey (Or should I say "Stewie" for Kid Eagar and make this a Family Guy episode?) He must cross from his playpen to the front door counting the halves as he goes, First he must get half way, and then half of that, a quarter way. Well doing this abstract process, he'll never reach the front door. Of course this is not IRL, because a potential Infinity of adding up shorter and shorter fragments is just a mental exercise and not what physically happens in a finite world. But we are in the process of generating numbers which come from not only the visual_spatial, but the verbal_symbolic in a dynamic AND.

Case (d) is called finitely weaker than the non-composed existence of _______ , and by this case shorter objects __ can be added up to some accurate value that has been given to some _____ object.

Case (e) is called infinitely weaker than the non-composed existence of _______ , and by this case shorter objects __ can't be added up to some accurate value that has been given to _____ object.

Our original Non-Complexity ______________ is unbounded and not composed of any smaller pieces. (Again, it's not the mathematical line composed of points.) Markers, boundaries create fragments. If you stop at a finite number of fragments you can add them up to your bounded region, but you can't add them up to the unbounded ground _________.

Positing that you continue the process of chasing the potential infinity, you just keep generating more albeit shorter fragments that never even add up to the length of your original bounded region 0_______1.

Case (e) is defined as potential infinity (infinity that is based on the notion of collections, with respect to actual infinity (infinity that is based on the non-composed existence of, at least, ____ (1-dim object).

By verbal_symbolic-only reasoning, potential infinity, is "a non-terminating process (such as "add 1 to the previous number") produces a sequence with no last element, and each individual result is finite and is achieved in a finite number of steps."

By visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning potential infinity is a collection of infinitely many objects that can't define the existence of, at least, _____ (as given by The Axiom Of Non-Complexity), where (e) is the result of this inability.

Potential Infinity is thus a "non-terminating process" that entails ever more and more without ceasing objects in a collection that cannot be completed.

"Actual Infinity" is boundless and non-composed. It's the seamless ground. All is One in respect to it, but it isn't even one. As Doron applies it to metaphysics, it's the neutral substance that is neither material nor mental. It is neither this nor that.

Classical Mathematics, is a framework that tries to define actual infinity in terms of sets (which are a particular case of the notion of collection).

My framework defines actual infinity beyond the notion of collection, by defining the existence of, at least, non-composed _____ (1-dim object), as given by (1).

More details can be found in http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3068

Classical Mathematics tries to get to Actual Infinity from the finite by collecting all the points on a line. It begins with the notion that Infinity is composed of an infinite collection of discreet points. But you see between any "discrete" point there must be another infinity of points. The closer you look, the more there are, so you can't possibly complete any process of addition and get to this so-called composed Infinity. You can only talk in terms of a potentiality, but not a reality.

What Classical Mathematics has done is create a special version of Infinity. It still speaks of an "Absolute Infinity" that is Doron's non-composed Infinity, but for its own convenience it sets out a composed Infinity, beginning with the notion of an infinite line of infinite points each a discrete number. With a verbal-symbolic leap this specially brewed Infinity (called "Mathematical Infinity) is a gathered whole of all these discrete point numbers.

Doron's objection is that this concept of Infinity is verbal_symbolic only. The construction exists only in the fantasy world of head-only imagination.
By his above active process demonstration, you are to see (visually-spatially, Directly Perceptionally, that ___________ in reality, that is, the Non-Complex Ground, is not, cannot become, a composed collection of objects. This mathematical bastard of "Mathematical Infinity" is not a result of correct thinking. Correct thinking is verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial. More generally it is of the organizational principle of X/Y Complementarity. "Mathematical Infinity" is a one parent, unwed mother, child of symbolic_verbal only where the organizational principle of thought is primarily by classes of things, rather than real concrete things.

According to Doron, this kind of thinking spawns separation: us vs them, exclusive classes that are racist and bigoted, and all sorts of prejudice.

What's more "Mathematical Infinity" becomes an imposter of Genuine Infinity, the true Ground of Being. Using it substitutes a toxic concept for Being. We fail to participate in Being and get lost in the fragments.

So symbolic_verbal only just contributes to the ills of the world. "Mathematical Infinity" perpetuates the ills by being an incorrect thinking that keeps us from UNITY awareness and living in the Ground of Being.

He insists this kind of mathematics must stop or we'll all be nuclear toast.
 
I interrupted Doron's "Baby Steps" process he began in Postcount 3095. So in case I give into the temptation to go back into one of my two or three year long lurkings, I want to return the thread to where it was...……[/OUOTE]

TL;DR
:wackyerr::wackySLEEP::wackylaugh:
 
Dear Apathia, thank you for your actual participation in this thread and by doing your best in order to clarify the considered subject, by using your unique gifted and creative way (I suggest not to omit also www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12415982&postcount=3106).


More generally, In my view, Mathematics can't be completely disjoint from those who use it.


jshfisher is a person that belongs to a community of persons that hold the notion that Mathematics is an existence that is disjoint from our mathematical activity.

This notion is known as the Platonic school, which according to its philosophical view, there is an ideal existence to mathematical objects, whether living forms discover it, or not.

Moreover, on top of this Platonic philosophical view, jsfisher and his mathematical associates use the philosophical view of Formalism, which is based on verbal_symbolic-only aspect of the concept of Form.

By combining these philosophical views, classical mathematicians like jsfisher, are asked to develop tools that enable to verbally_symbolically report in the most accurate way the independent ideal existence of the platonic mathematical objects.

So by Formalism AND Platonism, mathematicians are no more than verbal_symbolic-only reporters of independent ideal existence of platonic objects.

Currently the community of verbal_symbolic-only formalist AND Platonist reporters is the dominant one, and each person of this community does his\her best to keep this dominancy.


By using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, one enables to be aware that:


1) The substance of both Platonism AND Formalism is non-composed (it is not bounded by any collection of abstract\non-abstract objects, nor by any verbal_symbolic-only reports about them.

2) visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning itself is no more than a tool, which its aim is to develop UNITY awareness among those who are practicing it.

3) The goal of such practice is to reach UNITY awareness by finitely many steps, and than establish it as the actual source during its finite or endlessly (potential infinite) creative expressions, such that no expression contradicts the further developments of other expressions, anymore.

---------------------------

Once again I wish to stress that any attempt to disjoint Mathematics from it users, easily transforms this tool into a catalysator of self-made destruction of its users (please observe www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12438365&postcount=3193).
 
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Dear Apathia, thank you for your actual participation in this thread and by doing your best in order to clarify the considered subject, by using your unique gifted and creative way (I suggest not to omit also www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12415982&postcount=3106).

Do you mean the yin, yang part of the post?


More generally, In my view, Mathematics can't be completely disjoint from those who use it.

In a broad sense this is a truism, as we are speaking of mathematics as an application of the structures of cognition. That Humans largely use cognition by the manipulation of symbolic classes is certainly inseparable from who we are and our very understanding of what it means to be Human.

There are repercussions that our intellectual lives so often stop at the class abstractions. So I understand your desire to bring the visual, spatial, and concrete back into the picture. It remains to be seen if there can really be a systematic language built on X/Y Complementarity that will be both subjective and objective in the same breath. Of course X/Y Complementarity as an organizing principle demands there be such.

This notion is known as the Platonic school, which according to its philosophical view, there is an ideal existence to mathematical objects, whether living forms discover it, or not.

Moreover, on top of this Platonic philosophical view, jsfisher and his mathematical associates use the philosophical view of Formalism, which is based on verbal_symbolic-only aspect of the concept of Form.

By combining these philosophical views, classical mathematicians like jsfisher, are asked to develop tools that enable to verbally_symbolically report in the most accurate way the independent ideal existence of the platonic mathematical objects.

So by Formalism AND Platonism, mathematicians are no more than verbal_symbolic-only reporters of independent ideal existence of platonic objects.

Currently the community of verbal_symbolic-only formalist AND Platonist reporters is the dominant one, and each person of this community does his\her best to keep this dominancy.

The dominant philosophy of mathematics is Platonic. It assumes the abstract forms are out there waiting for our discovery, and that class abstractions are realities prior to our discovery and language. And that cognition by the organizational principle of classes is the very organizational principle of nature.

There are other views in the Mathematical Community that take a Constructionist approach where it's said that Mathematics is a creation of Human cognition rather than some prior organizational principle of nature. It's a language we create that has some descriptive utility.

The Intuitionist School also critiques and refuses to accept "Mathematical Infinity." They have attempted numerous work arounds for Math dependent upon the concepts of Limits and Infinitesimals. Formalizing has been rough going for them, because they don't accept the law of excluded middle in Logic, and of course Set Theory is quite dependent upon being able to summon forth a set of all the real numbers. They reject the existence of such a thing.

Their works with alternative Calculus may be of some use, but they are not at all in the same game as Doron Organic Mathematics for two main reasons. One they not only reject "Mathematical Infinity," but Absolute Infinity. They allow only a Potential Infinity. They say Infinity as anything but a potential doesn't exist in nature. Secondly they don't work from a X/Y Complementarity or visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic approach to cognition.

What absolutely cannot be compromised in Doron's approach is Absolute (Actual) Infinity. This is the only truly real Infinity. It's also the single substance or ground of Being. And it's The UNITY of the consciousness of Samadhi. Doron's Mathematical Infinity is Metaphysical Being and Cosmic Consciousness.

By using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, one enables to be aware that:


1) The substance of both Platonism AND Formalism is non-composed (it is not bounded by any collection of abstract\non-abstract objects, nor by any verbal_symbolic-only reports about them.

2) visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning itself is no more than a tool, which its aim is to develop UNITY awareness among those who are practicing it.

3) The goal of such practice is to reach UNITY awareness by finitely many steps, and than establish it as the actual source during its finite or endlessly (potential infinite) creative expressions, such that no expression contradicts the further developments of other expressions, anymore.


1) the ultimate reality and metaphysical substance behind appearances does not consist of the Platonic forms or classes. It has no marks, no definitions, and isn't composed of anything. It's simply Being itself, and/or the Ground of Being. Speaking of it in such a way to make it an existing object apart from others injures our capacity to Be.

2) Visual_Spatial AND Verbal_Symbolic thinking (and X/Y Complementary Thinking in general) is primarily a tool to open the mind to UNITY awareness. I suppose that means in part that Doron's presentation accomplishes his goal, even if it doesn't go on to create new methods of doing mathematical calculations. All you really have to do with it is encounter the Real Infinity which is the Ground of Being and the Cosmic Consciousness. Perhaps afterward as that perspective is consolidated, you will be able to see through to solutions in a new way that doesn't objectify nature and persons.

3) The activity of Doron's Baby Steps post is to nudge you to the SOURCE of thought, so you realize the womb of creation gives birth to new realities that are not restricted by set cognitive forms and a Verbal-Symbolic logic that makes them impossible contradictions.

---------------------------

Once again I wish to stress that any attempt to disjoint Mathematics from it users, easily transforms this tool into a catalysator of self-made destruction of its users (please observe www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12438365&postcount=3193).


What Doron is all about is a corrective to our Mathematical/Scientific approach to nature and ourselves that excludes our Subjectivity, our felt sense of being, our sense of transcendence, and that we are not mere objects to be numerated and categorized. He wants a new Mathematics and a new Science that treats us as souls instead of meat puppets. He wants a language that immediately expresses Being as opposed to mere knowledge. Math and Science only talk about it, it, it, and it. He wants a language in which those its are souls, or open ended beings, in the Cosmic UNITY.

(Please note that "souls" is used metaphorically. I'm not talking about disembodied, supernatural, spirits.)

Then in the very using of that language we would practice UNITY awareness.

The details are slim. But Doron has his little exercises here that he hopes will jog minds and crack open the cosmic egg.

For me, my best tool of openness isn't language but sitting still, silent, and listening to what just is. Not doing, though. Just being for a while. To get to Right Thinking, you often have to turn the comp off and reboot. People then are not people, but they are. I remember the UNITY upon which I'm not a separate chunk of matter or separate chunk of classified thing from them. This UNITY is the vital thing, no matter how we realize it.

Doron might say, "This is not enough. You must learn to do Correct Mathematics. Alas for now my only correct mathematics is by using a calculator instead of trying to figure it in my head. :wackylaugh:
 
Thank you very much dear Apathia for sharing your experience of Being, which also goes beyond any form, formal or informal.

Life phenomena, which we are part of it, is exactly the way of the universe to be developed into UNITY awareness, and if our life forms as human beings will not actually take the path into UNITY awareness, other life forms on this planet will take it with or without the human species.

More about it is given in https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3hcPBRBCzClQ3ZFMjVrQzBkc0E/view?usp=sharing.

In my opinion one of the most powerful tools for survival is a healthy sense of humor, where a given life form enables to make laugh of itself, without destroying itself during its self joke.

In my opinion, UNITY awareness is the optimal condition for making laugh of ourselves without destroying ourselves during the joke.
 
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Doron,

Are you somewhere in the ether? I was thinking you were going to pick up where you left off before I went on my spiel. But it's been over a month. I hope you're OK. We aren't done here. So I hope you drop back in again.
 
Doron,

Are you somewhere in the ether? I was thinking you were going to pick up where you left off before I went on my spiel. But it's been over a month. I hope you're OK. We aren't done here. So I hope you drop back in again.
Hey Apathia,

Thank you I'm OK.

What do you have in mind?
 
I'm glad you're OK.

I see it's down to just you and I in this thread. There may be some lurkers. For the lurkers I still have something to say in clarity of your intent.

I wanted to say a bit more about a question that we keep asking here.
It's more or less: What are the new algorithms your Organic Mathematics provides to do advanced calculations? In addition I've asked the question: How would such methods of calculating naturally engage and involve one's mind in Unity Awareness?

This always comes to a dead end road. I have clarity now why. The traditional purpose of Mathematics from the Pyramids to Quantum Mechanics is the manipulation of quantities of classes. (Five items of the class Apple minus Three items of the class Apple.) This is what everyone here has been thinking your Mathematics must entail and facilitate.

However your Organic Mathematics has intentions beyond quantities of classes. It describes a thinking that is beyond categories and classes. It presents an aspect of the relationships between states of being, generally of the form of a X/Y Complementarity. In its simple form it deals with spectrums of being such as in the interplay of Black/White with shades of Gray. In more complex X/Y Complements it deals in spectrums of comparison and contrast. It's foundation is states of being rather than objects. "Apple" in this mode of perception and thinking is a state of being. "Human" (Including an individual one) is a state of being; is in a state of being. This isn't some Platonic Form prior to the apple. It's simply what is being, becoming, happening right now.

Traditionally Mathematics has dealt with and been the language of quantities of objects in classes. It's a narrow discipline that limits its range of discourse to just this. But these classes are fragments of a much larger interaction. A class is a collection of objects in similar states. As such it focuses on objects instead of states of being and process. The more it tightens the definition of similars, the better it works. So it forgets states of being for classified objects.

The other day I saw a woman buying a basket of plastic, decorative fruit. She was going to use it as a prop in a play. The apples were very realistic in appearance. From a distance to the eye they were of the same state of being. One could throw some real apples into the basket and count them of the same class.

Organic Mathematics acknowledges the haziness and fluidity of classes, because they are based on similarities of states of being. Of course you can separate out the real from the plastic. You can do that because you have a wider sense of being. This wider sense of being enables classes to begin with and keeps them open and flexible

So the purpose of Doron's Organic Mathematics as presented is to present how we think and speak about states of being and how numbers are also primarily states of being. It's not really the purpose of Doron's Organic Mathematics to give us new methods of calculation for objects, but to reveal the wider context of thought in which the mind is working from states of being.

States of being are actually in constant flux. The alternation of Peak State/Trough State gives the object appearance of a moving wave. In reality there is a single process. When one is no longer focused on objects but understands the flux of states of being, the Unity of Being is manifest.

Even when we are doing a calculation of quantities of classes, in the background of mind we are working from states of being. Doron's purpose is to make us aware of that wider context of mind. He presents what the mind is doing prior and how it's gathering of objects in similar states is not some kind of Platonic absolute but an act of creation.

There are no new methods of calculation. In essence he has presented an altered perception of a bigger picture. There's no magic algorithm to make you see Being while doing Mathematics. But we can be aware of the wider way we think. For example when counting humans, human is a state of being and the similar states of human being gathered into the Human Class are more than our prejudices and fixed forms. People of other so-called races are Human, Transgender People are Human, Animals are sometimes quite Human, and someday Androids may be Human. What's more we are more than Human. Classes cannot contain our fluid being and Unity of Being.

When Doron talks about "Direct Perception" he's speaking of your capacity to think in terms of being rather than just mere objects. Writing this seems very esoteric, but in reality you are in Human Being as you read this.
 
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Thank you Apathia for your open participating that do not fall into the trivial solution of classes of objects, which are treated as closed wholes (exactly because the partial paradigm that subjective aspects must be omitted in order to, so called, rigorously define the "purity" of being objects, instead of wisely find the subjective as a key that actually open objects into wider state of being in real space\time realm).

Some concrete example:

By Traditional Mathematics 3=1*3=1+1+1, because it is a quantitative-only framework.

By Organic Mathematics 3=1*3=1+1+1 if we choose to deal with quantitative-only framework, but we also can choose to use a qualitative framework, such that 3=1*3 (we ignore the quality of each 1, which enables to gather them by one operation of multiplication) ≠ 3=1+1+1 (we do not ignore the quality of each 1, by adding their qualities to each other, which defines 3 as a qualitative integrator).

Once again, be going beyond the verbal_symbolic-only reasoning in order to use verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning, these insights are clarified, for example:


45975460572_34d1bcf338.jpg



As observed by verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning 3=1*3 ≠ 3=1+1+1 if quality is not ignored.

Moreover, quantitative and qualitative aspects of a given equation are interact with each other as properties of a given solution, exactly because both of them are expressions of the same being.
----------------

By using Traditional Mathematics, one claims that 3=1*3=1+1+1 demonstrates the power of generalization, but by using more careful observation that is not limited only to verbal_symbolic reasoning, one actually demonstrates that this is a trivialization of verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning.
 
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Before I comment on this, Let me repeat that intelligence has a wider scope than manipulation of objects of classes. Fundamentally and unconsciously we work from the relations of states of being. Math's quantities of classes is a narrower field of discourse in which a class is a set of objects that have a designated and defined similarity in their state. The set of coins is defined to contain metallic tokens of currency. It can contain pennies, dimes, and nickels and in subset contain a quantity of nickels as opposed to pennies. In the set of nickels there is a deliberately narrow definition of the class Nickle. A wooden nickel would be tossed out as not being a "real" nickel. This is the nature of a mathematical set. It's all about these abstractions of classes.

A penny is just a penny, an instance of the class penny. Speaking of three pennies immediately takes one into the level of discourse of abstract classes with little attention to states of being and of being itself. Counting three people in the room is necessarily about the class of People. The wider being of the individuals present is conveniently ignored to speak of the abstraction People and the quantity of this abstraction via abstract numbers. If we want to acknowledge that the people present are more than just objects of the class People, we sometimes call them "persons and say there are three persons in the room. Of course "persons" Is but another object abstraction that doesn't address being.

As soon as you talk adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing, you are engaged in object talk about quantities of objects in classes. But could you add or subtract qualities of being? Well quality is an entirely different type of discourse. Adding, subtracting, multiplying a quality isn't a matter of numbers. The enhancement of a recipe for cheese pizza, so "multiplying" its tastiness is not really quantifiable. So that's not what this is about.

Let's say that Diane is putting together a team of graphic artists for the back drop scenery of a play. She enters the room where candidates have displayed samples of their art and says to selected persons, "I choose you, and you, and you." There's an "and" here, and addition. But there's not yet talk of a sum. Each "and" regards a unique person, a being that is not in that selection yet an instance of a category. She doesn't address instances of a class but beings. It's only later in speaking about the three instead of speaking to them, that they are three people or three members of the team.. It's in speaking to them that their being is addressed, while speaking of them they are replaced with object abstractions.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Some concrete example:

By Traditional Mathematics 3=1*3=1+1+1, because it is a quantitative-only framework.

Yes it is. It's merely about quantities of objects of classes. Immediately it's about these abstractions. As soon as you begin to count those pennies, each penny is but an instance if the class Penny. Each penny is completely replaceable by another penny. The unique being of an individual penny is ignored for the very operation of the most basic arithmetic. And so when your insurance company calculates risk and benefit. You are a statistic, not a being. It's what math does. You can forget persons are involved unless you have an overarching purpose or see a greater context.

By Organic Mathematics 3=1*3=1+1+1 if we choose to deal with quantitative-only framework, but we also can choose to use a qualitative framework, such that 3=1*3 (we ignore the quality of each 1, which enables to gather them by one operation of multiplication) ≠ 3=1+1+1 (we do not ignore the quality of each 1, by adding their qualities to each other, which defines 3 as a qualitative integrator).

Here is the intention to bring quality of being into some kind of mathematical framework. It can't be just quantities of objects in classes. It must include the quality of being that is prior to these similar states. However there's a cobra in the grass, that will suddenly strike its fangs into the intention.

Once again, be going beyond the verbal_symbolic-only reasoning in order to use verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning, these insights are clarified, for example:


[qimg]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4904/45975460572_34d1bcf338.jpg[/qimg]


As observed by verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning 3=1*3 ≠ 3=1+1+1 if quality is not ignored.

Moreover, quantitative and qualitative aspects of a given equation are interact with each other as properties of a given solution, exactly because both of them are expressions of the same being.
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By using Traditional Mathematics, one claims that 3=1*3=1+1+1 demonstrates the power of generalization, but by using more careful observation that is not limited only to verbal_symbolic reasoning, one actually demonstrates that this is a trivialization of verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning.

I like how these kernel diagrams depict what happens when unique states of being are added to the collection that are not mere instances of classes. Being outside and above the mere members of classes, they are uniques of themselves meaning that the collection contains by each more than just the class quantities. So 3=1*3 does not necessarily equal 3=1+1+1. Each "1" is one of itself and not an instance of a class of objects that can be quantified.

But here is where the snake strikes: numbers are in use and quantity quickly buries its fangs into your leg. For you see, we have three ones, three uniques. The mind quickly gives them they classifier of "uniques," or "1s" so that there can be a number of them. number of them. So quickly we are back to quantities of objects. We are back to that because that is the discourse of mathematics and numbers.

Of course the intention of Organic Mathematics is to be Verbal-symbolic AND Visual-spatial. In this there is the abundantly demonstrated (in this thread) danger that one will only get and remain in the verbal-symbolic aspect of it. One must see how the mathematical language is being used metaphorically, so to speak, to appreciate what it intends to illustrate and demonstrate.

I say that you use this to call out the choices we make in doing math. That is our deciding to what extent we are going to quantify each other, and how our defining is an act of selecting and creating what counts as membership in a class. The awareness of this is very important.

Have you created a way of doing arithmetic that automatically causes its user to be in a consciousness of Being? I don't see that you have done such. As illustrated in the ten years of this thread, readers saw your diagrams and matrices as only expressions of quantities of objects in classes and not an acknowledgment of Being. And you haven't given any techniques of doing math. They inevitably saw it as a matter of quantities, the preoccupation of numbers.

But I give you credit for addressing what goes on in mind prior to thinking in classes.

Your presentations have illustrated how we commonly participate in the creation of collections. It hasn't been about Mathematical sets, for mathematical sets are about precisely defined membership in classes. That's very Verbal-symbolic only. (Though that's certainly a very creative act of creating abstractions.)

Being and Unity Awareness range mostly beyond language, but where they most manifest Verbal-symbolic AND Visual-spatial is in speaking not about each other as objects of discourse but speaking our hearts to each other and listening with our full attention. Sharing being doesn't count up the objects shared. It's not transactional. It's not the American poison of commerce over community and marketed brands over persons. It can't be quantified.

But of course we use quantities of objects of classes for many practical reasons. The danger remains that we make this the be all end all of economy, technology, and behavioral science.

Perhaps you seek a technical language of Heart, But it can't be so contained. As your illustrations aptly show, it's too fluid to be structured in a mathematical style language. This is why we have poetry.
 
And yet you stick to "quantities of objects of classes" as the limit of Mathematics.

It's for purposes of my discussion with Doron. But I take back the "mere."

Doron would agree with you and say that his presentation was certainly "deeper than primes," and that it certainly can be Verbal-symbolic AND Visual-spatial. And why not? I just expressed where I see a problem, but overall I have no objection to his organic mathematics being Mathematics.
 
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