Hawking says there are no gods

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I'm not sure about this, myself, but you may be right.

It sounds counter-intuitive to me, that otherwise reasonable people wouldn't agree to reasonably think about this. I've seen theists sometimes speak very rationally about their faith, even recognizing that their faith is a subjective and personal belief and no more. When they recognize that, I'd say they are being reasonable, despite remaining theists.
But like I said, my interactions with actual theists on this, while not quite zero, hasn't really been very extensive either. So if your experience says it often does not work, then I will grant you that.

If they say their beliefs are subjective and personal, they're probably "agnostic theists". I don't have a problem with them, since I'm an agnostic atheist. Like I said, I'm only 100% sure about my own existence, and everything else is technically up for grabs after that.

I think most theists are "gnostic theists", though, who are 100% "sure" about the "fact" that their deity exists, and do not see it as a matter of subjectivity.
 
"The question of God is philosophical instead of scientific because I say so" is the specialist of special pleading.
If this post was directed towards me then my response is that you can't redefine the scientific method just because it suits your purposes and you can't redefine logic EVER.
 
(...) it's textbook appeal to popularity and you're trying to get out of it by pretending to be meta and ironic about it.

Committing a textbook logical fallacy with a wink and "This is totally not the exact by the numbers fallacy I'm literally doing right now" doesn't work.

(...) This is just a dozen paragraphs of saying the tired old "Don't be an atheist because it's mean" nonsense.

Again not telling people you disagree with them and affecting some wishy-washy "Oh we're all right in our own ways, I'd rather be nice then be right" persona doesn't make you a better person.



That is specialist special pleading I've eve seen.


Joe, you keep waving these skeptic buzzwords around, but I'm afraid you don't really understand them.

I've already showed that your ideas about what the special pleading fallacy is are incorrect, in my post #1763.

Since we were unable to agree on this, I suggested that you refer that post of mine to someone whose acumen you respect and whose intentions you trust. You refused to do that.

Well, here you have GStan -- with whom, I assure you, I have never interacted with before, so it isn't as if he is sticking up for an old mate here -- who has gone through that post, and he clearly says here in this post that he finds my POV, as expressed in my post #1763, to be valid.

I'm perfectly willing to have someone else -- in fact, any number of people as might be interested -- to see that post and see if they don't agree with that focused point.

Heck, I don't want to be mean, else I could have started a poll around that post of mine, and clearly showed you what people think about your idea of what constitutes a special pleading fallacy. As it is we only have a population of 1 thus far, of unbiased members who've reviewed that post, but the results of review by that admittedly very limited population is clear.



Lots of other things you're saying here is plain nonsensical. Apparently, going by this post of yours, you don't understand the appeal to popularity fallacy either. I could do another focused post pointing that out to you, but it would be tedious, and I suppose it would be kind of mean as well.



As for "Oh we're all right in our own ways, I'd rather be nice then be right", that is an outright strawman. Nowhere have I said or implied anything of the sort.


this is the "You have to agree I'm right before we start the discussion" tactic Chanakya played


Not once have I said anything of the kind.
 
You can't just rope off an argument you can't or won't defend and go "Yeah that whole method we actually have and and use to determine the validity of statements? Yeah you aren't allowed to use that here."

"The question of God is philosophical instead of scientific because I say so" is the specialist of special pleading.

Word. :cool:

People have been on Mt Olympus. There were no deities there. People have studied intercessory prayer. It doesn't work.

"Science" has had a say in all sorts of god claims, and it keeps on coming up empty handed in the search for gods and their claimed effects.
 
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If this post was directed towards me then my response is that you can't redefine the scientific method just because it suits your purposes and you can't redefine logic EVER.

I feel like you're going to fall back on "Some philosopher/theologian said God exists outside of science, so that's my proof that 'logic' doesn't apply."

I do not agree with your notion that this question (if any) falls outside of science.

I assume you have very narrow definition of what science is and think it is nothing but labcoats and beakers.

I'll sum it up for you. Any question of "Does a force/entity/being/object/process/thing that is claimed to have any effect on the universe exist" is a question for science. Period.
 
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I feel like you're going to fall back on "Some philosopher/theologian said God exists outside of science, so that's my proof that 'logic' doesn't apply."

I do not agree with your notion that this question (if any) falls outside of science.

I assume you have very narrow definition of what science is and think it is nothing but labcoats and beakers.

I'll sum it up for you. Any question of "Does a force/entity/being/object/process/thing that is claimed to have any effect on the universe exist" is a question for science. Period.

No! A force/entity/being/object/process/thing, which caused the universe, but is outside the universe, is not a question for science, because science can't answer that.
 
I'll sum it up for you. Any question of "Does a force/entity/being/object/process/thing that is claimed to have any effect on the universe exist" is a question for science. Period.
Who cares about your made up definition of "a question for science"?

Either come up with a scientific method or admit that you are just philosophizing.
 
Who cares about your made up definition of "a question for science"?

Either come up with a scientific method or admit that you are just philosophizing.

Jesus Christ with the whole "Hardy har you're doing philosophy." Sod off with that noise.

Either God has no effect on the universe (and he therefore doesn't exist) or we put those effects up to scientific scrutiny (which you won't/can't do because those effects don't exist because God doesn't exist.)

So basically "God exists because I get to make up how we determine how he exists because I say so."
 
Your ignorance of the scientific method doesn't mean that I am saying that "God exists".

I'm not splitting the hair between belief and apologetics anymore.

You're the one invoking magic, I'll assume I have a better grasp on the scientific method than you do.
 
If they say their beliefs are subjective and personal, they're probably "agnostic theists". I don't have a problem with them, since I'm an agnostic atheist. Like I said, I'm only 100% sure about my own existence, and everything else is technically up for grabs after that.


Sounds reasonable.


I think most theists are "gnostic theists", though, who are 100% "sure" about the "fact" that their deity exists, and do not see it as a matter of subjectivity.


Yes, this much I can attest to from experience: there are theists who would be outraged at even the suggestion of the possiblity that their God may be fictitious. You can practically see a resounding "Get thee behind me, Satan" pushing itself out of their throat, if they are anywhere close to this kind of a discussion. I have seen people who'd rather be with a thief or some such than with an atheist or even an agnostic.

Yep, these people are clearly not reasonable.
 

Roll your eyes all you want. Your argument is literally "When logic, reason, cause and effect, and evidence don't give me the answer I want I get just make up a whole new method to get the answer I want because of philosophy."

No. You don't. If you aren't using logic, reason, cause and effect, and evidence you aren't getting an answer in any meaningful sense of the term, you're just making stuff up.
 
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